LP12 and Clearaudio Master Reference

[AnotherJohnson]

It looks like their website is down right now,... that's ominous!

He had an amp with a nose button to press. That took you to a page where you were asked if you were customer or agent. Each choice took you to another page to make your inquiry. I suspect that if it’s down, he was probably overwhelmed.

[AnotherJohnson]

It looks like their website is down right now,... that's ominous!

If you like Jay’s Audio Lab videos (I do not), he has a current video that addresses the DarTZeel situation.

I really think DarTZeel is interesting to most who talk about the brand because of the Veblen pricing model. Most of the people who talk about the brand have never seen nor heard one in person.

In any event, I hope Herve survives, but if he doesn’t, the story may serve as a cautionary tale for others who would push the price boundary into the stratosphere. Seriously, who would ask $1M for an as yet undesigned phono cartridge? I mean besides DarTZeel.

[admin]

I wasn't aware of this youtuber so I can't make a conclusion on only watching one of his videos. But he released a new one on Dartzeel in the last 24 hours and it looks like the brand is alive and in no immediate risk of going out of business so that is good.

The video I watched: https://youtu.be/CUDyNQDbI8E?si=r42AHjgBowKK6nbK

[AnotherJohnson]

It reminds me of Willy Wonka.

Slugworth tries to run his business down (Roy Gregory plays the part). Willy closes the doors and invents new stuff (Herve plays the part). Roald Dahl (the narrator) is played by Jay.

Who will be Charlie? I think it’s Michael Fremer.

[Big Dog RJ]

Haaa! good one matey... goood one.

Dartzeel mmm... was very tempted at one point but decided no. That was a very wise decision on my part after consulting with a few others who were at least honest. We don't have a Dartzeel importer here any more. They shut down, and hence no service centre either. Nothing's bullet proof, and if I or any of us required service or tech support for our Dartzeel gear... well, good luck with that! was the response, so we all passed.

Still on the quest for that SS amp alternative, will keep auditioning and short-listing until the time is right. I do wish them (Dart-z) all the best though. Hopefully, that sort of pricing with that sort of gear will sustain for a category of clientele... I'm not going to ever be part of that group. It's not worth the spend. There are many many other options that are well capable for much less or should I say more realistic price points give or take.

Cheers maties, the tunes are fine!
RJ

[admin]

Looks like their website is back up. But oh boy, not sure how many people would take the leap of faith with not even having the ability to to see what they offer? I get the 'restructuring" thing, but the website gives the impression that they shut down and only offering support for previous buyers. If I were in charge (and I am not), I would redo the website asap. Even if it's just says "temporary out of stuck" for all the units.

[AnotherJohnson]

Looks like their website is back up. But oh boy, not sure how many people would take the leap of faith with not even having the ability to to see what they offer? I get the 'restructuring" thing, but the website gives the impression that they shut down and only offering support for previous buyers. If I were in charge (and I am not), I would redo the website asap. Even if it's just says "temporary out of stuck" for all the units.

Post #8 in this thread was the start

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ ... eel.39526/

There are a couple of active threads there, but Herve is posting in this one.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ ... ess.39530/

[admin]

Thank you for those links. I read through them (which took awhile with the 2nd thread).

Dartzeel definitely seems to be changing their business model but the owner seems very confident. That's a good thing. However, I can't but wonder if a potential buyer is going to be willing to put down a 5 figure deposit on a unit that is not ready to ship nor ETA?

[AnotherJohnson]

If you buy this one, they’ll ship it for free tomorrow

https://www.paragonsns.com/products/dar ... -pre-owned

[AnotherJohnson]

Back to the Linn/Ekos SE/Lyra Etna Lambda and Clearaudio/TT2/Charisma V2.1 …

I’ve listened to many more recordings on both rigs now.

There is no doubt that the Linn is more sensitive to nearby vibration and is more bouncy during cuing. These things are annoying.

But the Linn setup sounds far more beautiful in direct comparison. I have to think that a big part of this is the disparity in the cartridges.

The Lyra Etna Lambda is honestly a killer cartridge. At $9k it should be. The Atlas is the formal Lyra flagship, but in many comparisons seasoned listeners have chosen the Etna Lambda as their preference… the point being that it really is a world class cartridge.

The Clearaudio Charisma v2.1 is Clearaudio’s flagship moving magnet, priced at $2200. So less than 25% of the Lyra I’m comparing it to. It uses the solid boron cantilever and the polished prime line diamond of top Clearaudio moving coils. But while this enhances its tracking and extraction of vibrations from the grooves, the ebony body and MM motor don’t turn this into music as effectively as a more resonance free body or a lighter moving weight motor (a moving coil).

Clearaudio recommends the higher level of their moving coil line for the TT2. The Charisma is the weak spot in my Clearaudio chain.

I am faced with a dilemma. When I already have a high spec LP12 (Ekos SE, Keel, Karousel, Tramp2, etc), do I really think I’m going to better it by adding another $8k+ MC cartridge to my Clearaudio?

I am ambivalent. I could probably trade some high end interconnects that I’m not using, along with the Charisma to take the sting out of buying a da Vinci V2.1. But … after doing this, would I really have anything that’s better for vinyl playback? Aside from the massive feel and incredibly nice cueing, and the unusual fashion statement of the TT2, what do I really gain.

Hobbies … gotta love ‘em.

[Big Dog RJ]

That, only you can determine mate, no one else.

Apart from all the various combinations of TT rigs and their set-ups with carts, arms, plinths, motors, switches, belts, drive units, power supplies, isolation modules etc... This kind of activity can seem endless to the point where you actually do wonder if it's going to yield in any significant improvements.

It is quite a task even finding the right type of phono-preamp for your particular system, and one that will provide the highest level of musical engagement. I guess it depends on your overall preferences, something that will meet your expectations within a high percentage. Say around 90% or 95%. It can never be 100%... and those who claim that they've found the 100th % improvement and everything is tops, couldn't be happier because it's the best... will always keep looking and feel that there's something better. And yes! There's another one round the corner, and the cycle continues.

I've always said this and do believe that there's a point of synergy and performance threshold. This point of performance will be achieved on a particular system at a particular level. Once it reaches that point, then that's it! Changing and tweaking things again, might alter other areas that you were once used to. Then in which case, those areas will be tweaked and changes to the gear again! And the cycle continues.
I just look forward to enjoying some fine tunes, sometimes with work situations I don't have much listening time now.

This is just my opinion and I feel that most of us here, who've put in plenty of time, effort and dollars into building a highend system, which in fact is an Art form itself, it takes years to really achieve a certain level. Might as well just sit back and enjoy the music!

BTW, those are some nice cartridges, they certainly deserve a fine rig to perform optimally. Then again, how do you determine what's optimal? You'll have to draw the line at a certain level of performance. At that threshold, I'm sure the tunes are fine!

Woof! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

It is a rhetorical question and each must answer for himself. I agree.

I do have a LOT of TT experience over 49 years of audiophile experience with vinyl. We are a long long long way away from Pickering, Stanton, Shure, and even Grado.

So … I’m wrestling with the fate of vinyl here. The investment in the Double Matrix Professional Sonic eggs things on.

I think the question is “Can a top cartridge make the Clearaudio Master Reference and TT2 combo competitive with the Linn LP12/Ekos SE/Lyra Etna Lambda?

I kind of hope the answer would be yes, but if it is yes, who cares? Probably just me and Robert Suchy.

[admin]

I guess another question is whether you would be willing to let the LP12 go if the upgrade of the Clearaudio beats its performance. You've had a long "relationship" with the LP12. Of course you could keep both but is it worth having to TTs for the sake of variety in listening?

[AnotherJohnson]

I guess another question is whether you would be willing to let the LP12 go if the upgrade of the Clearaudio beats its performance. You've had a long "relationship" with the LP12. Of course you could keep both but is it worth having to TTs for the sake of variety in listening?

Good point, and I think the LP12 would be hard to give up.
Your point regarding whether or not I would want two competing world class vinyl rigs is at the heart of my dilemma. I think the answer is that two are unnecessary, perhaps even worse. Unless I buy another “main residence,” a second top TT is just audio bling.

[admin]

I guess another question is whether you would be willing to let the LP12 go if the upgrade of the Clearaudio beats its performance. You've had a long "relationship" with the LP12. Of course you could keep both but is it worth having to TTs for the sake of variety in listening?

Good point, and I think the LP12 would be hard to give up.
Your point regarding whether or not I would want two competing world class vinyl rigs is at the heart of my dilemma. I think the answer is that two are unnecessary, perhaps even worse. Unless I buy another “main residence,” a second top TT is just audio bling.

I think this is the real question. Frankly, I was surprised to see this post with the Clearaudio in your system. Not because it's a bad choice,... you always choose top end high quality gear, but rather I had difficulty believing you would be willing to part with the LP12 after you had really perfected that TT to its maximum. Sure, you could have two TTs but really if one is truly "better than the other", why have so much money/resources tied up in a 2nd unused or rarely used piece of equipment?

Both these TTs are top notch. The Clearaudio is definitely more "bling". I mean just look at it, a linear tracking arm, if that doesn't scream "LOOK AT ME!", I don't know what does. But the LP12 has such a rich history and that has been "your turntable" for a long time. Certainly nice to have these kinds of 1st world problems.

[AnotherJohnson]

I guess another question is whether you would be willing to let the LP12 go if the upgrade of the Clearaudio beats its performance. You've had a long "relationship" with the LP12. Of course you could keep both but is it worth having to TTs for the sake of variety in listening?

Good point, and I think the LP12 would be hard to give up.
Your point regarding whether or not I would want two competing world class vinyl rigs is at the heart of my dilemma. I think the answer is that two are unnecessary, perhaps even worse. Unless I buy another “main residence,” a second top TT is just audio bling.

I think this is the real question. Frankly, I was surprised to see this post with the Clearaudio in your system. Not because it's a bad choice,... you always choose top end high quality gear, but rather I had difficulty believing you would be willing to part with the LP12 after you had really perfected that TT to its maximum. Sure, you could have two TTs but really if one is truly "better than the other", why have so much money/resources tied up in a 2nd unused or rarely used piece of equipment?

Both these TTs are top notch. The Clearaudio is definitely more "bling". I mean just look at it, a linear tracking arm, if that doesn't scream "LOOK AT ME!", I don't know what does. But the LP12 has such a rich history and that has been "your turntable" for a long time. Certainly nice to have these kinds of 1st world problems.

I have a history with Clearaudio and with the forerunner of the TT2 (Lou Souther’s TriQuartz) too. It actually may predate my Linn love affair.

But I did choose Linn over all others,,even after a trial separation some years ago.

The Clearaudio is a nod to nostalgia. Perhaps unnecessary.. but harmless.

[AnotherJohnson]

It is definitely a case of comparison bringing dissatisfaction.

The Lyra Etna Lambda is now $9875 after the recent price increase. If you listen to the Clearaudio Charisma V2.1 (available for less than $1600 from discounters), it sounds great … but compare it to the Lyra, and it sounds grainy in comparison. All the detail and dynamics are there, but it is just not as smooth as the Etna Lambda. It sounds less analog. Sigh …

[AnotherJohnson]

An interesting thing I observed today: You can run both tonearms on the record simultaneously. The TT2 has relief cut into the frame to allow the Universal 12 to pass under it as the U12 approaches the end of the side.

This will be useful when/if I get around to comparing the TT2 to the U12. Earlier experiments comparing the U12 with Charisma V2.1 to the Etna Lambda and LP12 fell squarely in favor of the Linn/Lyra … for the same reasons that the Linn combo beat the TT2 combo.

I need a cartridge in the same class as the Etna Lambda to sort this out.

FWIW, this whole Clearaudio project has been for the fun of it. Sort of like guys trying to restore their Premier series components to original condtion I suppose. It’s just time and money

[AnotherJohnson]

The fun continues.

Found a deal on a Jubilee Moving Coil. I’ve heard that in auditions of phono preamps at Paragon. My reaction was that it punches above its weight. So we’ll see/hear.

The good news / bad news is that I’ll have to go through set up again, but I think that will be useful. The Etna Lambda is still likely to be better, but this will be a lot closer.

[admin]

The next setup should go faster as you're a pro now! Will be interesting to hear the new comparison.