Tube of choice for P12's

[jimbones]

What is YOUR tube of choice for CJ Premiere's. I own the P12's. Thanks

[Truth71]

Running 6550 output tubes?

[jimbones]

Oops, Ok so I meant to say Power tubes. It could be 6550, KT120, KT90, KT88 etc. I have the small signal tubes figured out

[Truth71]

As I recall, they were originally voiced on ( now NOS) GE 6550A, which are wonderful if one can find and afford them.
Otherwise, the re-issued Tung-Sol 6550

[jimbones]

As I recall, they were originally voiced on ( now NOS) GE 6550A, which are wonderful if one can find and afford them.
Otherwise, the re-issued Tung-Sol 6550

I am running the reissue TS. Was curious to hear if anyone is using a different tube as well (kt88?)

[Wildcat]

I have the smaller sibling to the P12...the P11. (The P11, P12 and P8 were all the same basic circuitry up to the output stages.) I've been running KT-120s in my P11 since I bought it several years ago.

When I first bought the P11, it was from the second owner, who was a friend of the family of the original owner, who had passed on. I think the tubes were the original GE 6550s (or maybe a replacement set--there is no way of knowing). The amp sounded "tired" when I bought it, and I did a full retube of the amp. It sounds quite good now! The KT-120s still offer the CJ sound but solidify the bass more convincingly. It's a nice tube that plays well at low volumes.

One thing that Bill Thalmann recommended was to change the 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes to RCA, as he mentioned that the Brimars I had in there were "wimpy." (Brimar was what Upscale Audio recommended...but since Bill was CJ's technical director, I trusted his recommendation.)

[admin]

I think this is why experience is so important. Specs are not going to be enough when making decisions such as these.

[Wildcat]

I agree. Our personal experience, and hearing the experience of others with the same family of amps, is the best path to take.

How are you liking the PV14L? I'm on my last set of M8080s and am going to see if Colomor (eBay, via the UK) still can provide me with a few sets of them. I never found a 6C4 variation that wasn't highly microphonic, and don't want to shoot the tube cannon at the preamp to find something else that works and sounds as good.

[admin]

Really like the PV-14L paired with the MV-55. It's a modest setup (as was the goal) and I have it down stairs in our sunroom so I do more casual listening. It's really a pleasure to have high quality sound in that space. I will often just hang out with my wife while she is doing something and I get to enjoy the sweet tunes.

The tube I'm using in the PV-14L currently is: https://www.thetubestore.com/6c4-ec90-6135-m8080

It was recommended specifically by Jon at TheTubeStore.

[Wildcat]

What brand did you end up getting? The listing seems to be a generic 6C4 placeholder.

I'm thinking back. The PV14L shipped to me with Philips-ECG 6C4s, and I had ordered some NOS Tung-Sol 6C4s which were more microphonic than the Philips.

(Philips-ECG was a parts replacement company--a local electronics store carried the line, and in addition to stocking thousands of things like resistors, capacitors, etc., other parts could be special-ordered. I still remember the blue and yellow packaging. I'm guessing the tubes may have dated to the 1980s?)

[admin]

I don't recall the specific manufacture off the top of my head. If you call/email Jon at TheTubeStore I'm sure he can give you more info. At $20 it was pretty expensive so perhaps worth a try.

I just checked my email conversation with him and he just responded with "we'll send you something nice." He's never let me down so I didn't inquire more than that and I simply don't recall what was on the tube...

[MattHooper]

(Responding to an old post, but I haven’t been around for quite a while)

I’ve used the premier 12s for over 20 years. Funny enough during that time I never tried tube rolling. In a few times the power tubes Needed replacing I simply bought whatever CJ recommended at the time. Which was in recent years the Tung-Sol 6550 reissues.

When my last Tung Sols needed replacing I managed to get
eight NOS Svetlana winged Cs (matched) Which was a total score! They sounded terrific, really linear and ballsy.

And then I acquired a second pair of premier 12s secondhand, which had the Teflon cap upgrade.
I was fascinated by the difference in sound compared to my unmodified 12s. But what struck me most was how the apparent size of my loudspeakers sonically expanded!
The bass seem to go deeper and it was tighter, And the highs seemed a little bit more prominent and airy, And overall, the image sizes seem a bit bigger and the soundstage just became huge and really deep.

Well, it turned out that the Teflon upgraded premier 12s Had been shipped to me with KT 120 Power tubes! So I tried switching those KT 120s into my old premier 12s, And what do you know? There was that similar sound: Everything sounded bigger based deeper and tighter extended..

In the end, I sold the Teflon upgraded 12s and just kept my own because most of the upgraded sound I heard came from those KT 120s!

And that started my tube rolling adventure with the 12s.
I also tried different input tubes to great effect.

A while back I Put in the 6550s. I also love their sound, Which is actually more punchy and linear all around.

But I think I can’t give up The glory of the KT 120s, Which sounds so massive and refined.

[Wildcat]

I honestly think I'd never hear the difference of a Teflon cap upgrade. If I did, it would probably be more in the amount of background noise removed (from having newer caps). Without both versions of an amp side by side to compare, I can't see myself making a valid comparison, especially when my subconscious tells me I've spent too much money on an upgrade and I'm telling myself it has to sound better because of that. If certain annoyances went away (background noise, sibilance, distortion, etc.), then that would be an obvious improvement.

(That's the puzzling thing about what our memory recalls about sounds. I know when I've purchased some new remasterings or made a system upgrade, I'll listen and "hear new details in the music." Only to find out when listening to it in the car or over the kitchen system that the sound was there all the time. The more careful listening makes us pick out details we often hadn't listened for in the past. It can be deceiving, at least to me anyway.)

I can vouch for the KT120s though. I bought the amp with what likely were the original tubes (he was the second owner, who got it from a family friend). The 6550s were GE. Can't remember what the others were. I have to say, though, that I didn't like the sound of it that much when it arrived. But once I put in the KT120s and freshened up the other tubes, it sounded way better. With the old tubes, it sounded "gritty" (if that makes sense). I'd read other comments about the KT120s' bass elsewhere online (not just in C-J amps) and the tubes certainly delivered.

One tube manufacturer I'm keeping an eye on is Ray Tubes:

https://apos.audio/collections/apos-ray-vacuum-tubes

The KT88 Reserve is too spendy for me (over $900 for two matched pairs or a matched quad), but the KT88 Select can be had in singles for $79.99 each. No 5751s, but they do have 12AX7s and 12AT7s. I'm kind of hoping to find some good GE 5751s--I have three but have no clue as to their age. Some local audiophile pals have tube testers, so I may take them up on their offers to test the tubes.

[MattHooper]

I honestly think I'd never hear the difference of a Teflon cap upgrade. If I did, it would probably be more in the amount of background noise removed (from having newer caps). Without both versions of an amp side by side to compare, I can't see myself making a valid comparison, especially when my subconscious tells me I've spent too much money on an upgrade and I'm telling myself it has to sound better because of that. If certain annoyances went away (background noise, sibilance, distortion, etc.), then that would be an obvious improvement.

I was very fortunate to have the two sets of Premier 12s - My originals and the upgraded ones - For side-by-side comparison. I think I compared them off and on for something like four months maybe even longer.

The two features that distinguished the Teflon premiere 12s was: Lowered backgroun noise blacker background. This should especially in how those amplifiers dug out the tiniest nuances of recorded ambiance or artificial reverb. It always revealed that more than the original 12s. They sounded more “ Wet” On many tracks in that respect.

They also consistently had slightly tighter bass.

And we’re just gorgeously clean of any grain. This is where the term “ Liquid” truly applies.

Not only that, This particular pair was in absolute mint condition condition and looked better than my old pair.

To my surprise I stuck with My original pair.
I actually preferred this slightly more golden tonality I was used to with my original pair. And I found the sound overall a bit more dense and punchy and solid with my original amps. I don’t know why but the Teflon premier 12s sounded a little bit more limp in that regard.

In the end, Through new Speaker positioning and playing with Acoustics in my room, I actually managed to get a more nuanced and detailed sound out of my system, Including Hearing more of that nuanced reverb In tracks, But maintaining the tone and punch that I liked. Pretty much the best of both worlds.

Though occasionally, I do think about those Teflon premiere 12s and their particular qualities.

[Wildcat]

I saw a pair of P12s up on US Audio Mart recently, and they had the Teflon upgrade. I'm not in a place to spend that much on audio equipment anymore, though, so I'll have to stick to my P11. I may eventually have C-J do the Teflon upgrade only due to the backrground noise I'm hearing. It's faint but I know it's there. I can't listen at loud levels anymore, and my speakers have powered bass units, so the P11 has enough power for my needs.

I get to spend money on more fun items than audio these days. We need a new refrigerator and stove (they're coming in a few weeks), and I had to do a new computer build for my work. That and we're heading south on the 26th for a long-overdue vacation. (Not an ideal time of year, but my better half has nearly two weeks off from the university, paid, so it's like a bonus vacation.)

BTW, someone has that pair of Premier 140 monoblocks (a rare configuration) up for sale again on USAM. I'd hate to see my electric bill, driving those monsters!

[Big Dog RJ]

That's about right WC! Definitely the case and agreed 110%
If what you've put together sounds mighty fine and fully engages you in an immersive experience, then the tooons are fine!

Sit back and enjoy. That deserves a mighty WOOF!
RJ

[jimbones]

In the past Ive asked Jeff if I can safely use KT120's in my P12. three times he said no. Recently I asked again this time he said "sure no problem" lol! Now I definitely wont use them lol

[Wildcat]

Have to say, I've had zero issues with my P11 running the KT120s and it sounds way better than with the tubes that came with it. I'd also read years ago (not sure if it was here, or elsewhere, but it was prior to the ownership change) saying that someone at C-J said KT120s were OK to use. Even Bill Thalmann never mentioned them as an issue when he serviced my P11 a few years ago (although he did change me over to some RCA 6FQ7s over the Brimars I was using).

If anything, KT120s are underutilized. The amp could be modified to make the most out of them I'm sure (a pair could provide 120 watts or more in push/pull configuration, provided the transformers could handle the extra wattage), but I won't go down that rabbit hole. Their lighter use in this amp translates to a longer lifespan, which is fine by me.

But I wouldn't be trying to use KT150s or KT170s in this amp.

[MattHooper]

In the past Ive asked Jeff if I can safely use KT120's in my P12. three times he said no. Recently I asked again this time he said "sure no problem" lol! Now I definitely wont use them lol

I made sure to check directly with Conrad Johnson Before I
Started using KT 120s in my premiere 12s. They said KT 120s were fine. And I’ve had no issues whatsoever.