Martin Logan 11 a

[Carl]

Will my Premier 11 a do with a Martin Logan 11 a. The bass unit has a separate amplifier.

[admin]

It should be fine. I used to run a ML Vantage for a number of years. As a large part of the ML is "self powered", it doesn't take a lot of wattage to run properly. It's more about the quality for the quantity of that power. And the Premier 11 certainly has the quality. Do you have the Premier 11 set up in ultralinear or triode mode?

[Carl]

Thank you very much admin. I have the premier 11 a in the normal mode.

[Carl]

PS do you know the damping factor of the Premier 11 a.

[admin]

I don't, but not sure how much it matters in this case as the ML's have their own amplifier to control the woofer and the ESL membrane is so light that it really doesn't need dampening in the traditional sense (like you would with a large heavy magnet).

[Carl]

More a question of General interest Admin. They say tube amp have a low damping Factor. Besides there are different Speakers then Martin Logan.

[Big Dog RJ]

Just came across this post yesterday, wanted to reply last night but thought I'd get few hrs rest before the arvo run. So now, here's your reply!

I've had three versions of the Premier 11 amplifier:
1. Prem 11 in pentode mode with KT88 tubes
2. Prem 11A in pentode mode with 6550C tubes
3. Prem 11-xs in Triode mode using EL34's

At the time, this dates back to around 96 - 98, and preamps used were mainly the PFR, PV12 and ART series 1.
These speakers were very successfully driven by the Prem11A:
1. Quad ESL 63
2. Maggie's MG3.3/r, MG3.5/r, and MG3.6/r
3. Infinity Renaissance 90
4. Genesis 500's (powered bass units).
5. ProAc Tablet response 1
6. Sonus Faber Grand piano
7. Tannoy Westminster's

From the speakers listed 5, 6 & 7, these were relatively easy loads, especially the Tannoy's being horn loaded. This very system of the PFR, Prem11A and Tannoy Westminster's were sold to my former company chairman, and still has this very system to this day, absolutely loves it! Of course the gear has gone through several services and refurbs... but nonetheless it's a high quality sound.

Speaker number 4: these Genesis systems had built-in powered bass drivers, where SS amplifiers were provided as part of the speakers. With the supplied Servo x-over unit, all you had to do is get a high quality stereo amp or monoblocks of your choice dedicated to drive the mids and highs. However, it wasn't that easy to fine tune that bloody Servo control unit. It had far too many controls an absolute nightmare! Anyway, on certain recordings when you hopefully dial everything almost right, the overall performance wasn't too shabby.

Speakers listed from 1 - 3, were driven full range, no assistance from subs, powered drivers or added bass units. The Quads and Infinity's were no hassle, beautiful sound but with Maggie's, on certain loud passage, those LEDs went haywire. I was in close contact with Lew J and mentioned this on the Maggie's, said it's quite normal but to go with soft to moderate levels. Of course after 98, we ordered in the Prem12's and Prem8A's, those Genesis and Maggie's performance were enhanced to another level!

Fast fwd that 20yrs to around 2018, I had the MV60/se, Classic 60se and CAV45 driving Quads and Maggie's once again and ML hybrids (Ethos, Montis and Summit-X).
These amplifiers replaced the Premier 11A and some of them weren't as powerful as the Prem11A but none of them had any problems driving ribbons or stat panels full range.

So to answer your question, the Prem 11A will easily drive the ML ESL 11A's. In fact, thanks to it's redesigned powered bass drivers, the Prem11A will be cruising on the stat panels.

I will point out one thing though, and that is with the Prem11A you can't go at very high levels, the Output stage will clip and you'll hear tube break-up. The control factor on LF detail to mids and extended highs will sound painful and shreakey... it won't be pleasant.

Then again, the Prem11A is not meant for very high levels of playback, and so is the case with all those others that superseded it: MV60, Classic 60, LP66S, LP70S, and Classic 62se. None of these amplifiers are designed for high performance levels, in which case you'll be abusing the amp. These amplifiers were designed solely for the enjoyment of recorded music at a level of fine musicality with finesse!

So if you're thinking of blasting your roof off then the Prem11A is definitely not going to make the cut. Although the ML 11A's are very capable of blasting the roof off, they can play very loud at extreme high levels.

If you're main priority is relaxing to music, being fully immersed in the presentation and most importantly that soundstage presence and depth then the Prem11A is all that! (Including all those amplifiers I've listed above that replaced the Premier 11 series).

At the end of the day, it all depends on your listening habits and preferences in volume levels. Only you can determine that.

Cheers, and hope all goes well.
RJ

[Wildcat]

Late, late reply here! I use a P11 with an earlier Martin-Logan system with a powered bass unit, and there are no issues whatsoever. Can it play deafeningly loud? No. But I only listen at moderate volume at the most, and the powered bass unit does the heavy lifting with the low frequencies. So it's the best of both worlds. I've never felt I lacked power.

[roberto]

More a question of General interest Admin. They say tube amp have a low damping Factor. Besides there are different Speakers then Martin Logan.

Hola Karl,

You are not reading Admin response about damping factor. The bass is amplified by the digital amp built in the 11s. Also you are reading old literature regarding the poor bass control by tubes...I asure you that these minor flaws regarding the bass control has being solved long time ago. Trust in your ears and enjoy what you are listening. Trust in them because they are the final judges. The Class D amps are great controlling the bass. Your tube amp is taking care of the diaphragm, not the woofers. The impedance for the bass signal in your 11s circa the 4000 ohms on the bass notes so these bass notes are not present in the diaphragm., There is a crossover around 400Hz having -12dB cutting frequency, so the paneles will have -12dB at 200 Hz, and -24dB at 100 Hz and so on. Really, don't worry about the damping factor. Just listen the quality sound coming from your 11s while being played by CJ electronics.

Now, a little bit more about your 11s. Did you know that the diaphragm of your 11s weights less than the air that it moves? Yes, you have a mirror image of the signal applied. Now, regarding the bass, the amplifier built-in on your 11s is made by OEM by Bang and Olufsen. Yes, made in Denmark. So you have a good quality components there, almost as good as Conrad Johnson.

I represent for over 30 years the Martin Logan brand here in Costa Rica. I do know their guts too. I had to serviced them once and then. And the support from the ML Service Deparment is very good too.

Happy listening.

[Big Dog RJ]

Great write up Robbo mate!

Your experience with CJ gear and ML stats is very rare... many young chaps today really don't have that kind of service experience. Frankly speaking, they don't repair or fix anything now, they just replace it or throw it out!
Thanks for sharing matey, always a learning curve.

WOOF! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I dunno … in the 1993 to 1995 period, when the Premier 11(*) amps were the latest and greatest, they were definitely gushworthy. Today, in my opinion, matching them with Martin Logan Masterpiece series speakers with onboard class D amps for the bass driver is a great choice. It is essentially bi-amping so that the now very old CJ can do its thing with the midrange and treble, while the cones are not disadvantaged (or enhanced to some listener’s ears) by the euphonious distortion. In Roberto’s and Big Dog’s situations, I think both are running powered ML subs for their bass. As subs go,,I like the big ML subs. And the CLX stat panels do very well with CJ amps.

Carl points out that there are other speakers too, so that his question about damping factor was of general, rather than specific intetest. I used to think damping factor and slew rate were important. And then I owned several tube amps that changed my mind. And now I’m back to solid state … and Ive changed my mind again (back to the idea that these specs are useful).

One thing is for sure … enjoying great music is not dependent on damping factor or slew rate. But damping factor and slew rate differences do become audible in side by side comparisons.

Enjoy the great CJ vintage gear. ML powered hybrids or ML stat panels with active subs will be very enjoyable.

[admin]

A few years ago I got to spend some time with ML 11a and I really liked it. I thought they provided ample low end with their active woofer. I suppose if you wanted to play them really loud with bass heavy audio, you could employ subs to augment that frequency range but I would not rush out to buy subs right off the bat. Perhaps I'm not a bass heavy person? After all, I'm running magnepan panels with no traditional cone woofer. When I was running my ML Vantages I never felt like I need additional low end. And the 11a is a superior design to what I had.

ML has clearly decided to go with the exclusive stat + sub unibody design. Although I can see why they made this decision, I was sad to see them discontinuation of the CLX line as I always imagined that would be my next upgrade. There is something "unique" to the sound of a full panel speaker. Perhaps that "unique" sound is not appealing for most?

At the end of the day, the ML 11a's are going to sound great with the Premier 11's.

[AnotherJohnson]

I don’t know why people say they won’t play loud. This is just flat wrong. Unless you’ve got a 1000+ sq ft room and a lot of absorption, they’ll play loud enough to run you out of the room.

The bigger issue is the squirrely load in the highest audible range. But there is very little (mostly zero) music above 10000 Hz, so it’s of theoretical interest, but not a practical issue.

[admin]

AJ is correct that they will play loud. I can get my maggies to play very loud as well. But they never shake the room like my subwoofer (in my hometheater setup) does even at modest volumes. They simply can't move that much air. So if you are a rare breed and like playing dubstep music at 105 db, you are going to need a sub. But for 99% of the rest of us, I don't think it's a major issue.

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,

Just a little note. The CLXs are designed to have subs for the very low frequencies. Two of The BF-210 or the BF-212 subwoofers should be use along with them for L&R cannels. Each sub comes with a flash drive. You are supposed to download from the ML site the special filters to match the exact frequency cut for the CLXs. It is kind of firmware for the sub. And will not interact with the CLXs I do believe that this frequency cut is circa the 38Hz. In other words, the CLX specs are rated from 56Hz and up...but still they do come lower. Also, 38 Hz at -12dB per octave cut, that means that a 57 Hz the sub acting sound will be -12dB at this frequency, letting the CLXs to drive stunning bass definition and great timber too.

Happy listening!

[admin]

I am aware of the "programable" subs for the CLX but back in the day when I was talking with a dealer, they seemed to indicate that the subs were optional and ML themselves didn't really seem to push subs as mandatory with the CLX's. Perhaps I am remembering that wrong as that was a decade ago?

The last generation CLX was $30k, so spending a few extra grand on some subs would not have moved the price "that much" from an overall price perspective. I don't recall even the advertisement photos having a sub pictured with the main speaker? So I always viewed it as "you can get a sub if you want more low end but it's not needed."

[roberto]

Hola Admin,

Yes, they were optional because perhaps many possible owners already had a sub on their systems. Everything on this world is doing business. So, selling the CLXs without a sub that were designed to work well with them was an option. Usually the problem was that the dealer might did not know that the CLXs were designed to have these ML subs. In my case, having only one sub, due that my room is small, I don't need more extra low frequency than the one that I get from. This is also my liking too.

We have here the example. AR used his CLXs without a sub for some years, and then he had the chance to audition the CLXs with these ML subs, he bitted the bate. Now he is very happy adding a ML sub with them.

[Carl]

Very sorry you have not heard of me (my brother died). I tried several loudspeaker (4 Pair) at home but could not find the right one. But a new shop demonstrated Final 12 ESL loudspeakers (little brother of https://final-audio.com/products/model-15/ ). The owner left the Finals a week at my home and I was flabbergasted.

PS The dealer of the Martin Logan 11 a did not want to demonstrate at my home. I do not buy LS without a serious home demo.

[admin]

First and foremost, very sorry to hear about your brother. Our condolences.

Too bad you couldn't home demo the ML 11a's. I've heard them at my local high end audio store and they are wonderful speakers. I've never had the opportunity to listen to Final ESL's so I can't comment on the comparison. A big difference will be the active subs on the ML's. But how they compare to the Final Model 15 or 12 I can't say.

One concern would be the local support if anything went wrong with the Final. Their website doesn't have information a a dealer or service network and shipping speakers to the Netherlands and back must be crazy expensive. So that is definitely a good question to ask if before making the purchase.

[Carl]

Oh sorry admin, I’m a Dutchman. Final is an hour by car. And a Dutch LS is of course relatively cheap for me (import tax).