PV-5 time delay muting

[Wozzzz]

Hello all,

I have a pv5 and the time delay when I switch the preamp on isn’t completely functional. The left channel is muted but I can still hear it a bit. The right channel is not muted. The relay clicks after 90 seconds just as the manual says and the left channel comes on completely. Is this a relay issue? Can it be cleaned or do I need to replace?

Thanks

[AnotherJohnson]

I had this same problem at the end of my PV5s trouble free life. This was back before the principals retired, but current ownership was running the repair services.

The unit had failed, I had gotten authorization to return it, I had asked them to restore it to original specs. The estimate was high, but I gave permission, and the work was done.

When it came back to me, this relay had not been replaced, and it was both intermittent (in timing), and asymmetrical (left and right could vary).

I found this to be incredibly annoying. I have mentioned the relay issue in other posts. I called to ask why it hadn’t been replaced.

I was told that there wasn’t a good option for the replacement. CJ had the OEM relays, but “They are as old as yours, and not likely to perform any better. Replacement won’t necessarily be better, so we did not replace it.”

Honestly, it is a miracle that these now 40 year old units still run. It’s fun … but it’s not the hobby of high fidelity. It is the hobby of enjoying vintage gear.

[Wozzzz]

Thanks! I have seen the exact relay for sale on eBay. I may try to clean the one I’ve got but it seems to play fine after 90 seconds and I’d have to wait that long anyway so maybe it’s best just to leave it.

[admin]

If you can get new relays for a reasonable amount and you are handy with a soldering iron, this may be a fun project. I probably would not dump too much money into a PV5 and if the replacement relays are 4 decades old that would give me pause as well.

[stereoquest]

Hi Wozzzz,

Most relays can be taken apart (at the very least have the cover removed ). You can normally get in there and clean the contacts -if its very bad you may need to use 1000 grit first but do wash out with alcohol thoroughly as carbon is conductive and you dont want it everywhere (sounds worse than it is) but do clean the area thoroughly. I have used a small syringe with lithium (lightly warmed) to grease the pivot points ( very little is needed) with some success previously. I have not done many but the 2-3 that I have done worked well at least for a year, which gave time to source a replacement and the other 2 are still working 4 years later. Over a very long period of time they carbon up from arcing that happens between the contact points which is normal it will only get worse as more carbon builds up. For this reason I don't entirely agree with what CJ said in one of the post above as new contacts are clean and will eliminate this most common issue, but agree that old stock mechanical parts can age. You will need to de-solder the relay and remove its cover, it is often just clips at the bottom, can be a little finnicky but it will pop off. While it is out you can measure the pin outs and see any other possible identifiers on the bottom to help source a new one. There is also often a small capacitor near the relay and sometimes a transistor maybe a diode these can also go south and should be replaced. The relay will prob be around $10-20 try Omron first the transistor and cap a couple dollars max (use brand name stuff any of the big players.

If you cannot source a relay (or it falls to bits ) with the exact pin out measurements then the only other option is to drill new holes in the board and re link the new relay to the pin outs, nothing difficult or fancy - mute relays mostly ground the outputs and are double gang double throw - common as cheese .start with the correct voltage in your search and then its size and then pin out measurements -----you will almost certainly find something that works - as above start with Omron. If you are hugely lucky you may even have a dry joint on the board but this probably isnt the case.

Hope this helps and good luck

[AnotherJohnson]

Hi Wozzzz,

Most relays can be taken apart (at the very least have the cover removed ). You can normally get in there and clean the contacts -if its very bad you may need to use 1000 grit first but do wash out with alcohol thoroughly as carbon is conductive and you dont want it everywhere (sounds worse than it is) but do clean the area thoroughly. I have used a small syringe with lithium (lightly warmed) to grease the pivot points ( very little is needed) with some success previously. I have not done many but the 2-3 that I have done worked well at least for a year, which gave time to source a replacement and the other 2 are still working 4 years later. Over a very long period of time they carbon up from arcing that happens between the contact points which is normal it will only get worse as more carbon builds up. For this reason I don't entirely agree with what CJ said in one of the post above as new contacts are clean and will eliminate this most common issue, but agree that old stock mechanical parts can age. You will need to de-solder the relay and remove its cover, it is often just clips at the bottom, can be a little finnicky but it will pop off. While it is out you can measure the pin outs and see any other possible identifiers on the bottom to help source a new one. There is also often a small capacitor near the relay and sometimes a transistor maybe a diode these can also go south and should be replaced. The relay will prob be around $10-20 try Omron first the transistor and cap a couple dollars max (use brand name stuff any of the big players.

If you cannot source a relay (or it falls to bits ) with the exact pin out measurements then the only other option is to drill new holes in the board and re link the new relay to the pin outs, nothing difficult or fancy - mute relays mostly ground the outputs and are double gang double throw - common as cheese .start with the correct voltage in your search and then its size and then pin out measurements -----you will almost certainly find something that works - as above start with Omron. If you are hugely lucky you may even have a dry joint on the board but this probably isnt the case.

Hope this helps and good luck

CJ’s decision not to replace was based on their experience with their equipment. It was most likely the best call.

You have to be truly obsessed (or perhaps your time is worth nothing) to take a 40 year old relay apart for micro-cleaning. “Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”

Dealing with 25+ year old audio equipment is a musical quest … but it is musical chairs, not music to the ears. At some point all the good money after bad is just lost money.

[Wozzzz]

Thanks for all of the replies. I also have a Belles 21a preamp so I’ve got something to move on to but I’ve liked what I’ve heard from the pv5 even though it’s old. I think I’ll deal with the small amount of noise on power up and power down.

[stereoquest]

Hi Wozzzz,

Most relays can be taken apart (at the very least have the cover removed ). You can normally get in there and clean the contacts -if its very bad you may need to use 1000 grit first but do wash out with alcohol thoroughly as carbon is conductive and you dont want it everywhere (sounds worse than it is) but do clean the area thoroughly. I have used a small syringe with lithium (lightly warmed) to grease the pivot points ( very little is needed) with some success previously. I have not done many but the 2-3 that I have done worked well at least for a year, which gave time to source a replacement and the other 2 are still working 4 years later. Over a very long period of time they carbon up from arcing that happens between the contact points which is normal it will only get worse as more carbon builds up. For this reason I don't entirely agree with what CJ said in one of the post above as new contacts are clean and will eliminate this most common issue, but agree that old stock mechanical parts can age. You will need to de-solder the relay and remove its cover, it is often just clips at the bottom, can be a little finnicky but it will pop off. While it is out you can measure the pin outs and see any other possible identifiers on the bottom to help source a new one. There is also often a small capacitor near the relay and sometimes a transistor maybe a diode these can also go south and should be replaced. The relay will prob be around $10-20 try Omron first the transistor and cap a couple dollars max (use brand name stuff any of the big players.

If you cannot source a relay (or it falls to bits ) with the exact pin out measurements then the only other option is to drill new holes in the board and re link the new relay to the pin outs, nothing difficult or fancy - mute relays mostly ground the outputs and are double gang double throw - common as cheese .start with the correct voltage in your search and then its size and then pin out measurements -----you will almost certainly find something that works - as above start with Omron. If you are hugely lucky you may even have a dry joint on the board but this probably isnt the case.

Hope this helps and good luck

CJ’s decision not to replace was based on their experience with their equipment. It was most likely the best call.

You have to be truly obsessed (or perhaps your time is worth nothing) to take a 40 year old relay apart for micro-cleaning. “Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”

Dealing with 25+ year old audio equipment is a musical quest … but it is musical chairs, not music to the ears. At some point all the good money after bad is just lost money.

It’s probably 30-40min work from beginning to end and may last a long time…. You don’t need to pull it apart as such but I’m sure you know that . You are right old equipment (just like old cars )requires a certain level of dedication but with CJ gear being built on a solid foundation with a little maintenance it should be able to last many more years . There are probably only 2-300 dollars of parts of equal or better quality in total to fully rejuvenate an old amp or pre amp that would age needing replacement. If you have the passion and time it’s a nice thing to do. I was just trying to help and provide some support to the member who was asking about it and I replied . I am sorry if my comment about CJ not replacing a part they had in stock offended , I don’t see why not otherwise why stock the part .

There is merit in replacing old equipment with new as old hifi can be challenging at times . If we all threw away our old 20+ year ( Thats year 2000 ! ) gear there wouldn’t be any vintage equipment around .

[Wozzzz]

It doesn’t seem that daunting to me but I can see both sides. I really appreciate the advice. I’ll probably tackle it at some point.

[stereoquest]

Hi Wozzzz,

Just at the car wash and have time to kill - couldn’t help think about how easy it is to clean a good relays contacts.
It looks like your relay is in fact an Omron MX2P these are a good relay and where used by many . I have attached a couple pictures. You will see the contacts clearly - they look like solid copper and you may even be able to get at them without removing the relay itself only the cover only 2 clips . …worth a try but may be a bit tricky to get at not impossible . By the pictures you can see how the two copper poles come together and make contact . I need glasses and a magnifier for most things these days but you should be able to see clearly if those contacts are dirty and black by only removing the cover . You might even see it without removing the cover . Good luck it’s hopefully an easy job - it should be

I even read a post that said CJ advised a person to just clean them …… but who knows what to believe on the internet .

Pictures and relay type below.

[Wozzzz]

Thanks for the pics! I may try to take the cover off without removing it from the board if there’s room.

[stereoquest]

Hi Wozzzz,

I sometimes don’t fully explain and thought I should ….all you need is ( as long as they are not burnt black and crusty which I do not expect ) to get a bit of cotton sheet lightly dipped in contact cleaner through those gaps - you manually close the contact and drag the cotton through and spray off to clean . If you have it out it’s much easier to do and paper towel would even work . As a last resort 1000 grit but if they are that crusty it’s time to replace really . Use a pair of tweezers to get it through - there are two contacts of course. If you are not to hot at desoldering definitely don’t start there - most cock ups will happen at the desoldering stage with too much heat .

Do report back if and when you give it a go .

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I do appreciate all the great info provided by Stereoquest.

FWIW #2, I was told they’d cleaned my relay.

I was also informed that the ET3SE would be a serious upgrade. So I bought one. That led to further upgrades to ET7 and ET7s2. I eventually got out of the PV line. I had multiple systems at the time, including PV8 with Teflon cap upgrade and PV11. The move to the modern era was clearly a serious upgrade.

[microstrip]

Just to point that unless we have access to an high quality desoldering tool, IMO using the Chemtronics SoderWick (or similar) is the safest way of removing soldered components without damaging PCBs.

https://www.chemtronics.com/how-to-use- ... s2TyilZCii

Used at the proper soldering iron temperature this wick completely removes all solder, allowing the easy removal of the component and re-insertion of a new one.

[admin]

2nd the use of a soldering wick. It's pretty full proof, easy to use, and cheaper than any other option. It's what I use to desolder.

[Wozzzz]

Thanks to everyone for the help!

[Wozzzz]

Hi everyone,
I was able to get the plastic cover off of the relay and clean the contacts with cardstock soaked in contact cleaner. Took a few cycles but the relay is now working properly. Thanks to everyone for all of the help and advice.