Premier 11 v. Classic 120

[mstrshikadance]

HI All.

I love my Premier 11 and have no plans to replace it. I am more just curious what I would notice sonically by upgrading to a classic 120?

Currently running through an ET3-SE.

Thanks!

[admin]

I won't get into which one is superior or not. The Premier 11 is a might fine unit and was top of the line when it came out. Nothing bad to say.

The real issue is that you are comparing a 30 year old unit to a brand new one today. The reliability, arguably superior circuit design that has come from an extra 30 years of experience, etc... is the real differentiating aspect here.

If it was me, I probably would go with a new classic 120 as I could depend on many years of hassle free play. I own CJ gear in the 3 decade category and it works, but it's an extra level of uncertainty that nobody needs. That's just me though, I know many people swear by the Premier 11 and older gear.

[Big Dog RJ]

Agree with Admin 110% and also to add, the Classic 120 and 120se are far superior to the Premier 11 or 11A, without a doubt!

The Prem11A was in CJ's top tier series at the time, with the Premier 8A monoblocks being their flagship amps. They were truly remarkable amplifiers, and held that podium for a long time; (I had all three versions, Prem 11A, Prem12 & Prem8A matched with the ART preamp).

Over the years, circuits were further refined with better power supplies. These larger power supplies offered higher current capacity and highly stable voltages, allowing these newer amplifiers to perform at higher levels without breaking up. In terms of greater control, drive and full grip on difficult loads, CJ's newer designs further refined that Classic tube circuit.

The Premier 11 was replaced by a generation of amplifiers: the MV60/se (which also replaced the MV55 and Prem11). That was then replaced by the LP70S, LP66S, Classic 60/se, and now the Classic 62/se. So as you can see, the Premier line goes way back...

The Classic 120/se is the current top of the line in their classic series line up. So it's not just a small upgrade in sonics, it's far superior to the era of the Premier line. The Classic 120 is a power house! It's like putting two Prem11's together, even then it's still far ahead. The Classic 120 is a big amplifier! It's not small, and its power supplies are rock solid massive. It can drive virtually any load and the SE version (fitted with KT120's, Teflons and Vishays) takes the level of performance even further!

To explain its sonic attributes, well there are so many areas I can go on about... let's just say it gets you closer to the actual performance! You really need to audition a Classic 120 or 120se in order to understand what I'm saying.

Also, touch base with our good mate Robbo from Costa Rica. He uses the 120se version to drive his ML CLX's, and just loves it! Robbo uses the ET7S2, so within the same line of your ET3SE.

Hope that helps.
Cheers, RJ

[mstrshikadance]

Thanks so much all. This was the type of answer I needed. Love learning how these products have evolved over the years.

[roberto]

Hola mstrshikadance,

All I can say is that my Classic One Twenty SE surpassed all my expectations regarding the quality built, quality sound and lifespan. I never had any issues with it, just pleasure and a very enjoyable power amplifier. Previously I had a lot of different power amplifiers and brands...and this unit it is a blessing to have. It brought to my ears, four or five stories higher in quality sound than my previous amps. It is just a nice smooth sound with the Conrad Johnson signature sound quality.

[jahatl513]

A different take from one who has had many of both 120se and Prem 11 and Prem 11 C1’s; among others.
I’ll take a Premer 11 c1 or regular over Classic 120SE any day of the week. Why? Sonically the Premier 11 just has more musical appeal. There is no compare with a 120SE.
120SE will do more with heft and command of speakers. It stands a much greater chance of long term survival. The Transformers command more meat on the bone, but sonically the romantic sound of a Premier 11. At a fraction of the price of a new amp; used ones selling at $1500-$2100
Premier 11 is still the bargain of the century; fact is My Wilson Sophia 2’s, Tannoy Kensington GR’s, Devore Fidelity Suepr Nine, and Harbeth c7Es3’s have never wanted for more heft or power; errrrhhhh… well, unless its a Premier 12 mono.

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! That's a very very valid point!

In fact, we were just talking about this very topic and can confirm this preference by quite a number of vintage gear owners. That very same description of "musical appeal" and "romantic sound" of CJ's vintage gear is and will always be their hallmark. This is the very essence of that Golden glow that CJ was known for. At the time, there was no other brand that matched it, not even close!

So, as you can plainly see from the above post, there are still those who prefer that type of signature sound and it was one of those iconic tones that you can listen to for endless hours with absolute zero fatigue.

CJ's latest gear hardly has any of these qualities. There are hints of that golden glow, caramel sweetness, romantic appeal, a much warmer tone, whatever you want to call it but it gets far less as you proceed up the chain. The top of the line has hardly any! OTOH this latest gear allows far more of the actual recording to flow through, so you'll hear every minute detail but whether that's a good thing or something else is yet to be decided by the owner.

On the lucky side of things, I sincerely believe that CJ's Classic line of amplifiers still offer bit more of that golden glow or warm enveloping affect should I say. Starting from the Classic preamp to the Classic series power amplifiers, and the current production of the Classic 62se and 120se, still have that signature sound of the original CJ hallmark.

Personal preferences will always prevail, and THIS is the biggest reason why I still use the LP series amplifiers. Golden glow at its finest!
Now that deserves a mighty WOOF!
RJ

[Wildcat]

I don't plan to (and actually, can't afford to) replace my Premier 11 with anything else.

But I do notice at audio shows that the modern tube amps sound a lot like (or maybe too much like) solid state amps--I don't hear the same attraction with those as I do the Premier 11. (Granted, this is with unfamiliar sources, speakers, etc.) If that's the case and I wanted a much newer amplifier, I would probably be using one of the Pass Labs amps, as those are very musical sounding, and I've really liked those that I've heard. Even used Pass Labs amps can cost a bit of money though.

[Joe Appierto]

Just a thought and I don't know if it's in your budget but have you considered the C1 upgrade for your Premier 11?

[SolderSlinger]

No one has touched on the power difference between the Premier 11 and the Classic 120.

Really should compare the Premier 11 to a Classic 60SE or Classic 62SE. I'm sticking with the SE versions because I think that they sound better than the non-SE models. In my home, in my system. LOL
I was pleasantly surprised by the Classic 60SE. I haven't heard the Classic 62SE but feel I would prefer the Classic 60SE over the Classic 62SE for the following reasons 1) I've heard the LP70S and LP140M which have the same 3x 6922 input stage topology as the Classic 62SE, and 2) the Classic 60SE uses 1x 6189 (12AU7) input tube followed by 2x 6922.

The Classic 60SE shares the same 12AU7 input tube "design" as the LP125SA+, LP260SE, ARTSA, and ARTmono. In my home, in my system, I really like the sound of the 12AU7 input tube designs. Has a little of the 5751/6FQ7 magic but is closer to the 3x 6922 neutral sound. I feel that it's why the ARTSa and ARTmono were such a hit when first introduced. CJ took a small step back towards the Premier 11, 12, and 8, and away from the LP70S, LP140M, and LP275M. I didn't own CJ at the point in time that the LP70S, LP140M, and LP275 were introduced, but talking to folks that did, many CJ fans didn't like the change.

I had a Premier 4 when I bought the Classic 60SE. I bought it mainly as a spare amp and to try a newer design. My expectations were low. The Premier 4 is an exceptional amplifier. But the Classic 60SE stayed and I sold the Premier 4. I do miss it.

[Wildcat]

The power difference is only about 2.5dB between the two amps, which is an audible change but it's not nearly doubling the subjective loudness. It's still interesting to compare different amplifier designs though!

I thought of finding a Premier 140 or a pair of Premier 12s but even there, that's only a 3dB increase, and it's twice the power consumption. Listening at lower volumes as I do now, it's not worth the expense. And, my speakers have powered bass sections, so that helps also.

[Joe Appierto]

I went from a Premier 11A to a Pr 140 and the difference was not subtle. When I had the C1 upgrade done to the 140 the difference was even more pronounced. If the golden glow is a factor I'd avoid the 140. The 140 is not in the same league as the newer/newest CJ designs but it was a predecessor -- all Russian tube complement was used in its design. Even going back to classic vintage tubes such as the original Tung-Sol 6550 and the Genalex KT88 the 140 didn't sound like the 11A in any real way.

Just sharing.

[Big Dog RJ]

Woof! Woof!