LP125SA+ vs P12's

[jimbones]

Thoughts on the LP125SA+ vs P12's?

[admin]

I can't comment on the sound differences between two new units, but one factor to consider is that newer manufactured equipment should last substantially longer than significantly older ones. I'm always a little extra cautious with gear that is over 2 decades old (even though I own CJ gear that fits this category).

[AnotherJohnson]

Maybe I missed something. Is there something you don’t like about your P12s? Or are you just interested in trying something else?

Any of these could be end game amps if you’re happy with them.

You’re asking people to compare very old gear, and the performance of any given sample is going to depend on its service life so far, as well as the current state of its tubes and other components.

You can only answer these comparison questions by trying both in your system. Even then, you only know how those two samples compared.

[jimbones]

Im only going on what Ive heard is that the LP series that has the premium parts is a step up over the older Premier series. Its more of a FOMO on what may be better. There are times when you wait to upgrade a particular piece and when you do its like "I wish I had done this sooner I didnt realize it would be that much better"

[AnotherJohnson]

Im only going on what Ive heard is that the LP series that has the premium parts is a step up over the older Premier series. Its more of a FOMO on what may be better. There are times when you wait to upgrade a particular piece and when you do its like "I wish I had done this sooner I didnt realize it would be that much better"

I don’t think you need to worry.

Wait for the major upgrade. You like RJ’s analysis. He says to wait until you’re going to hear a 40% improvement. I honestly don’t think the P12 to LP is that dramatic.

[jimbones]

Hmm ART 150's? Is there a series one and two or just one?
I was surprised to read the Art 300 is a few pounds LIGHTER than the 150. Must be an error.

[AnotherJohnson]

Hmm ART 150's? Is there a series one and two or just one?
I was surprised to read the Art 300 is a few pounds LIGHTER than the 150. Must be an error.

That’s the difference between monoblocks and a stereo amp. The 150 is stereo. You need a pair of 300s.

[admin]

Hmm ART 150's? Is there a series one and two or just one?
I was surprised to read the Art 300 is a few pounds LIGHTER than the 150. Must be an error.

That’s the difference between monoblocks and a stereo amp. The 150 is stereo. You need a pair of 300s.

Yup. Same on my generation of "ART amps." It's 82 lbs for the ARTsa, and 83lbs on the ART, but the ART's are monoblocks so it's actually twice the overall weight.

[jimbones]

damn so no monoblocks between the P12 and Art other than the LP series.

[AnotherJohnson]

You’re not missing out without monoblocks either. I’ve been sucked in myself many times. Now that it’s hard to lift and carry heavy awkward stuff, they don’t sound nearly as good as I’d thought they did.

Actually I’m kidding on the level.

[jimbones]

You’re not missing out without monoblocks either. I’ve been sucked in myself many times. Now that it’s hard to lift and carry heavy awkward stuff, they don’t sound nearly as good as I’d thought they did.

Actually I’m kidding on the level.

Im not interested in Monos because they are better but usually a bit lighter for me to carry

[AnotherJohnson]

You’re not missing out without monoblocks either. I’ve been sucked in myself many times. Now that it’s hard to lift and carry heavy awkward stuff, they don’t sound nearly as good as I’d thought they did.

Actually I’m kidding on the level.

Im not interested in Monos because they are better but usually a bit lighter for me to carry

I had this feeling too.
Then I started experimenting.

The very best sound per pound to my ears is the 47 pound Audio Research Ref 75 SE. There are several for sale in the $5000 to $6000 range on the used market. Warren Gehl and Michael Fremer were discussing it on one of MF’s ARC factory tours and MF expressed delight. Warren commented that it was just one of those serendipitous results that turned out beyond expectations. I decided I preferred mine to my pair of Ref 250 SEs.

[AnotherJohnson]

I just noticed you’ve got an ET5 preamp. Sadly the Ref 75 SE does not have single ended inputs. ARC is putting both on their current models, but the Ward Fiebiger designs predate this.

The ET5 and P12s is a killer system. You could do worse than to just sit back and enjoy it.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yep, that's for sure. Solid advice above.

From all the combinations of power amps I've owned, sold and helped out various customers with, that upgrade itch is one of the most difficult and expensive itches to have! There are so many personal preferences that even after upgrading, sometimes they're not that excited. Hence, It was a marginal improvement...

However, on the other side of things, there's the case where they did spend a substantial amount of money on the upgrade gear, didn't really get too excited either but willingly admits that it sounds bloody good because they've spent a substantial amount of money... and life goes on. Or should I say, those fine tunes keep playing.

Referring to what JB commented, he's actually spot on! From the Premier series to the ART series 1, there were no other monoblocks on offer other than the LP series. Not even the Classic series had any nor the MV series. There were various stereo amps introduced, at one point it was tricky to juggle with all the models / versions.

Around 2008, I know one chap who used two MV60SE stereo amps as monoblocks by connecting only the Left channel outputs, as per advice given by the CJ crew but he didn't own it for too long. Now he's got the LP140M and is happy as! So in his case, coming from a MV60SE towards a LP140M, that's a definite improvement!

Looking at it overall, the existing pre-power combination that JB has is really good. Especially that ET5, that's a really tops preamp. Having Premier 12's and driving the right type of load towards an effortless presentation is all that's required. Perhaps, your other gear can be upgraded or even the speakers, I don't know. Or is it an issue with the room? Perhaps there aren't any issues at all, and everything sounds great but you still have the itch... that's normal.

This is where I drew a line and raised the bar towards a personal benchmark of improvement. There were far too many variables to consider, some elements were out of my control (room & wifey...) and this is where I arrived at a figure of 40%. If any particular gear offered a good margin of performance in the upper ranges of 35% and above then I would certainly consider it but not recommended it. Simply because it's still not 40%. So to some people that percentage may not be anywhere close to 30%.

In the majority of gear I've encountered, that is within the highend category, this percentage of improvement has averaged around the 15 - 20% mark, that's about all. In some cases even less than 15%. And so I thank them for their timely effort in arranging a demo and gracefully do the Swan Lake ballet out the door!

However! There is a certain type of highend gear that can truly tingle the senses, caress your ears with very finest tunes and you'll be engaged with it instantaneously! Bang! There she goes! You'll recognise those finest tunes from the first note onwards, the musical presentation is superb! Ticks all the boxes, meets all the criteria in terms of power and finesse, and most importantly meets or exceeds my personal benchmark of 40%.

CJ's Class A rated gear in their new ART series happens to be just that. Now I truly understand these designs and what JF has been working at for so long. Like I said, it's a passion! Nothing else.
A few other makes come to mind, like Dartzeel, CH Precision, Solution and Aries Cerat, which I've attended lengthy auditions but they cost a bloody fortune!
So when considering CJ's top of the line, their price range isn't too shabby. The only thing is, not many of us can afford a pre-power combination costing over 100grand AUD just for two items!

This is where the wifey would blow all her fuses... (even the high voltage ceramic ones). However, when calmed down and asked to listen, only then she goes oh my! What a wonderful thing. How much? Errr...not much...and life goes on. Dog house incoming...!

See how you go JB, I'm sure you'll find your preference soon, and don't forget to audition as much as possible, only then you'll get a very good idea on improvements, if any, and be able to make a wiser decision based on availability and finances.

As stated above, keeping things simple, there's the LP125SA+... that's another beautiful CJ all tube Stereo power amp. An excellent match with the ET5. Only thing is you'd need to demo it to know. Tube maintenance maybe relatively the same as high powered monoblocks but a stereo version has its advantages.

All the best now, take your time and don't rush.
Cheers, RJ

[jimbones]

Thank you all for your insight, much appreciated. My system sounds very nice so when some one says what dont i like about it, that is difficult to answer. You would be amazed but right now I am using my SUMMERTIME amp, a NAD M23 and it is georgeous. Although I believe the best class D I have heard is the AGD. The NAD is very close at a fraction of the price. I am into value.

WRT trying out other equipment in my system I uncovered there is improvement to be made in the digital chain. I demoed DAC's and I learned I prefer R2R over delta sigma. I purchased a Holo Spring 3 KTE DAC. Should get it in about a month. So you don't know what you are missing until you keep reaching for the sky. I am very fortunate my wife is OK with my addiction lol.

Again I want to express my appreciation, I love talking gear and experiences. Its one of the hobbies where there may be few people in our communities we can share but online community is far reaching.

[SolderSlinger]

To Big Dog RJ,

Looks like you've had great opportunities to audition many CJ amplifiers. Can you describe the sonic difference between the Premier 12 amps and a LP126SA+ amp?

Thanks,

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day mate, Prem12's and LP125SA+ yes...(not sure of any LP126sa...) was that a typo?

Anyway, being in the highend business for a good number of years, allowed our dealership network to put together a vast array of gear. Our customer base were mainly from the Sth East Asian region, with a handful from Aus & UK. During that time, CJ's PV, MV, MF, Premier and Sonograph series was our primary focus. At that time, we sold quite a lot of gear, expanding our base from Spore to the far corners of Malaysia. After 2004, it was the LP series and ART series 1 that we had not directly ordered from CJ, mainly due to pricing and my family migrating to Aus. So I closed up the dealership and headed out to sea in 2005. Thereafter, most of my customers sourced their gear from my Spore dealers.

It was only after I arrived in Aus, I got in touch with our Aus CJ importer and the rest is history! So yes, have either owned, sold or auditioned nearly every CJ product, except the very vintage gear... PV1 - PV6, Prem1 - Prem7 and the older MV series amps. Started out with the MV55 and upwards... to the ART Class A series.

Note: the Aus highend market is very very small, hence not many of the ART series 1 nor the latest ART Class A gear has been ordered here. Therefore, every year or at least once in two years, I try to make a trip out to my former dealer mates in Spore. Mainly to have a good laugh of the old times and of course audition CJ's latest & greatest, amongst many other audio makes.

*That was a small historical event, which I thought worth mentioning* sorry if I bored you...

Re. To sound comparisons between Prem12's and LP125SA+

Under no circumstances have I compared both side by side, both these amps are from different eras, and several models have passed on since, therefore I'll list the gear that I had hooked up at the time that I remember very well.

Prem12's partnered with CJ's ART preamp, also used a PFR preamp. Source was CJ's DV2B digital playback system (vacuum tube CD player), and cables were all Nordost Blue Heaven and Red Dawn. I used several speakers with this set-up, mostly for demos and custom installations. Speakers ranged from Maggies MG3.3, MG3.5, MG20, Paradigm Studio 80 and Studio 100, and Infinity's Ren80 & Ren90 and Ypsilon with servo control unit.
That gear / system sounded tops! It had everything and anything you would ever require from a dynamic playback system.

Until... fast fwd that to 2010 with the following gear:
ACT2 S2 preamp, LP125SA+, McIntosh MCD301, Quad ESL 2905 and 2912, cables were all Nordost Heimdall series 1 and Frey series 1. Also used the Martin Logan Summit-X stats with various LP series amplifiers, before finalising on the CLX's.
This system surpassed the above in every angle imaginable! Inner detail, soundstage depth, 3D imaging, tonal accuracy, overall quietness, pristine level of clarity, finesse and most of all a much higher level of musicality. It was several levels above, without a doubt!

Now compared to the much older gear, those older Infinity's were highly coloured, no where near the transparency of Quad ESL's or my Martin Logan's for that matter. The older Maggie's, although quite transparent, had a tendency to miss out on certain frequencies, and the pure ribbon tweeter also had a tendency to wander off on its own. It was like listening to three different panels at one point. Also, speakers and room interaction plays a critical role in assessing any gear, hence no single room is identical (as you're well aware of).

Considering the ART preamp and the Prem12's, I achieved a far better result when we used Apogee's and the higher end Infinity's, such as the Beta's. That was powerful, with great dynamics and full scale but it didn't quite have the attributes as listed above in that Quad ESL system. Even with Apogee's bi-amped using Prem12's on the mids/highs and the MF2300 on the bass, still was not a coherent sound. There were elements missing.

In summary:
Prem12's are monoblocks, they will have better sense of stereo separation, zero cross-talk between channels, dedicated power supplies to drive one channel, nothing is shared and is a fine combination when partnered with either the ART preamp or the Premier 16LS. Driving a highend speaker full range is easy to set-up and something I prefer over a complicated bi-amped crossover network, it's just too messy with far more unnecessary connection points.

LP125SA+: Stereo amp: powerful tube amplifier. Has all the power and finesse of CJ's newest LP series amps, much simpler circuit, high quality parts and can drive virtually any load with ease. I have only used it with the ACT2 series 1 and series 2 preamps at the time. Driving ESL's and other panels, such as the MG3.6 and MG3.7 full range, it was a far margin compared to the much older gear. It was simplicity at its finest level.

Of course if the Prem12's were brand new and fully upto spec, driving a more modern ESL from Quad or ML then it may sound tops! However, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any Prem12's around that have been fully refurbed... spending on serious upgrades to refurb vintage gear is a total waste of money unless you've got plenty of it!

In which case, might as well go for one of the latest amplifiers.

Hope that helps! A wonderful past down memory lane...
Cheers, RJ

[admin]

I've got nothing to add to what RJ said but I just have to say how amazed I am with his incredible knowledge base when it comes to CJ gear.

[Big Dog RJ]

Cheers Admin!

BTW speaking of monoblocks, how are those ART monos going? I'm sure those partnered with your ET7S2 is a very fine combination on your modded MG20's. I'm thinking you'd be enjoying those finest tunes way past midnight...

Now it's 11:33pm, everything's done in the house, the crew are asleep and now my listening sessions begin! The tooobs are glowing and it just sounds right.

Woof! RJ

[admin]

Cheers Admin!

BTW speaking of monoblocks, how are those ART monos going? I'm sure those partnered with your ET7S2 is a very fine combination on your modded MG20's. I'm thinking you'd be enjoying those finest tunes way past midnight...

Now it's 11:33pm, everything's done in the house, the crew are asleep and now my listening sessions begin! The tooobs are glowing and it just sounds right.

Woof! RJ

The ART mono's, ET7s2, and maggies are an amazing combo. Absolutely in love with the sound. It's hard to tear myself away and put listening time on the new mini-system with the PV-14L and MV-55! Good problems to have.

Take care my friend and happy listening.