Which "Golden Glow" CJ Preamp To Mate with CAV 45S-2

[Paolo]

Hola Amigos,
I recently posted about using the pre-amp out of my Luxman 550AXII into my CAV 45S2. This combination sounds quite good and in addition has the advantage of greater functionality than the bare-bones CAV45 S2.

So of course, I got to thinking. "Hmmmm- maybe I should get a tube preamp...." I don't need a remote control or phono stage.

Budget would be around $2k max. The main reason I'm considering this is to add some of the old "golden glow" to my system. I did speak with one long-time CJ dealer who has a PV11 w/phono that he's willing to part with. It's got a warranty since his shop has a tech with a large supply of parts and tubes. This dealer's personal preamp is a PV5 which he'll never sell. . He prefers it to the latest and greatest which he does sell.

I don't know at what point CJ began to make their gear less "glowy" and more "neutral." IE: what production years should I be looking at? I now know where I can get repairs done outside of the factory.
Can any of you far more experienced chaps share your thoughts?

Thank you.
Paolo

[AnotherJohnson]

Of the PV preamps, my favorite was the 11.

[admin]

I used a PV12 for a long time and really liked it. Now I have to say my ET7-s2 sounds amazing and I love it, but it is certainly more "neutral" sounding than the PV12 was. If you are looking to get the "classic" colored sound, a PV12 may be a good option. But just be aware that those units are pushing decades.

And I have to ask, why not just use the CAV45s2 as the full package? It's a great all-in-one package.

[Paolo]

I used a PV12 for a long time and really liked it. Now I have to say my ET7-s2 sounds amazing and I love it, but it is certainly more "neutral" sounding than the PV12 was. If you are looking to get the "classic" colored sound, a PV12 may be a good option. But just be aware that those units are pushing decades.

And I have to ask, why not just use the CAV45s2 as the full package? It's a great all-in-one package.

Thank you, Admin.

The CAV45s2 is a fine package indeed. At the moment I'm experimenting using the Luxman integrated for a preamp into the CJ but I can also use my Gold Note DS-10 streamer as a preamp combined with Roon and have remote volume control into the CAV45s@.

My interest in a vintage CJ preamp is due to my curiosity about the old "golden glow." As I've gotten older, I find myself preferring what some might call euphonic versus "neutral" or detailed. Last year I reluctantly sold my vintage MFA separates and while I do not miss the cost and hassles of maintenance and repairs, (sometimes the gear would be out for repair for many months at a time) I do miss the warm, rich musical presentation.

The essence of my question is approximately what production year did CJ preamps start to become more neutral and less euphonic? Classic and colored is what I'd like to try but won't sell the CAV45s2 to get there. That amp is simply much to good. It's a keeper.

[AnotherJohnson]

The 11 was the holy grail PV preamp.

The 12 begins the transition.

Will your seller consider letting you try the 11?

[Paolo]

The 11 was the holy grail PV preamp.

The 12 begins the transition.

Will your seller consider letting you try the 11?

Thank you very much, AJ. This info helps me immensely. I'll get back with the seller and find out what he is willing to do.
To reiterate, I am quite happy with the CAV45s2 but there's no harm in experimenting especially if my out-of-pocket is modest. My old gear required a total of 26 tubes. They were a fair investment just by themselves.

[AnotherJohnson]

I had the 5, the 8, and the 11. At that time I was collecting them. They were all purchased second hand, but close to the time of their release.

I ran them with several CJ amps, both tube and SS, at various times. I even cascaded them as you propose to do, using the phono stages for other line only preamps, both tube and SS.

I loved each one and was disappointed when it started to become difficult for CJ to service them due to parts a single issues.

I would say that if you really want to get back to the most syrupy sound of that era, hold out for a 5. The 8 was more neutral, though not neutral. The 11 still had the character you say you seek. So did the 12 … but less so.

The parts issues that drove me to the modern era are no less in play today, but if you have a good local tech to work on them, it may not matter to you.

[Paolo]

I had the 5, the 8, and the 11. At that time I was collecting them. They were all purchased second hand, but close to the time of their release.

I ran them with several CJ amps, both tube and SS, at various times. I even cascaded them as you propose to do, using the phono stages for other line only preamps, both tube and SS.

I loved each one and was disappointed when it started to become difficult for CJ to service them due to parts a single issues.

I would say that if you really want to get back to the most syrupy sound of that era, hold out for a 5. The 8 was more neutral, though not neutral. The 11 still had the character you say you seek. So did the 12 … but less so.

The parts issues that drove me to the modern era are no less in play today, but if you have a good local tech to work on them, it may not matter to you.

I do have a good local tech as well as does the seller of the CV11. The seller's tech is in-house. I'm in no hurry but it's fun to research the possibilities. Again, thanks so much for your helpful replies. Am I wrong to figure that even if CJ isn't repairing the old stuff now, that a good tech will be able to and even if the CJ parts aren't available?

[admin]

CJ is still repairing even old units (unless it has a component that is not available, like say their CD player). One advantage of the older units is that the designs were relatively simple and the schematics for the older units are available. That means that a good tech should be able to repair those units if sending it into CJ is not viable.

The more recent negative discussions have centered around CJ not always responding to support requests in a timely fashion. But I am not aware that they will not service even a PV1 if requested.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think they will service any tube gear they have parts for. But things like OEM relays, volume pots, balance controls … these were running short 10 years ago.

There is always the possibility of a substitute part that may be available… but it may not be OEM.

Old McIntosh is often restored in the same way by aficionados. If you really want to keep something running, love may find a way. Look at Roberto’s business. He is single handedly keeping old CJ and ARC operating for many vintage fans.

Vintage owners are finding it hard to capture the attention of the factory these days. Who knows what the future will hold?

[Paolo]

Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate your thoughts and insights. One bit of irony and hindsight: It's been over a year since I sold my MFA Luminescence preamp and here I am, thinking about getting a vintage tube preamp when one of the reasons for selling the MFA gear was to "simplify my life."


As good as the Luxman 550 AXii is, it sure ain't tubes - especially of the vintage persuasion.

But heck, the CAV45s2 ain't shabby in the least. I could part with the Lux but the CAV is another story altogether.

[AnotherJohnson]

One bit of irony and hindsight: It's been over a year since I sold my MFA Luminescence preamp and here I am, thinking about getting a vintage tube preamp when one of the reasons for selling the MFA gear was to "simplify my life."

What I recall about your earlier posts is that you had a very clean and simple system with a CAV45 s2 as the power and control. It doesn’t get much simpler.

As you add things to gain various flexibilities and functions, you create an evermore cumbersome and colored kluge.

At the first level of simplicity you have a variable output streamer and active speakers. At the next level you exchange the active speakers for passive speakers and an amp. At the next level you have something like the CAV45.

But the next level is not to start cascading redundant pieces like preamps in front of the CAV 45. Instead it would be to replace the CAV 45 by something like a Classic 62 and ET6.

The CAV 45 isn’t really intended as a standalone amp to support another preamp, even if it can be done. Of course to each his own.

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Paolo, how's it going mate...
Ah! So now you want to try a CJ tube preamp eh? I can see the itch has started... ha!

I've mentioned the time line before in one of my other posts but I'll repost just for you matey

Golden glow era preamps: PV series all the way upto PV12. Right after the PV12, there's quite a significant gap in preamps and CJ focused more on the Premier line.
Then they introduced the PV14 and PV15. Both of these preamps have remote, with digital level interface plus a bit more neutral sounding. Then these two models were discontinued and CJ offered the new ET series (Enhanced Triode) preamps.

The ET series preamps are further refined, based on the classic tube circuit, where they managed with just one tube! So all the models: ET3, ET5, ET6, ET7 and the SE and S2 versions, all use just one tube. Then comes the GAT and GATS2, which uses a pair of tubes, basically the same tube.

During this time, just before messers C & J were packing their things and getting ready to handover ownership to JF, they thought about those golden glow years. So for a last and final time, they offered a new Classic Preamp with no remote, no digital interface, just pure analog and pure golden glow but with a refined glow. This is the Classic / SE preamp. I must say, it was the most musical sounding preamp I've ever had the pleasure of owning. In fact, based on its circuit, with the special tubes they have installed on that particular circuit, it's musicality factor is so high, it was an absolute joy to listen to. But no remote, that's the only thing. Therefore, based on the similar circuit and tubes, the pv14 & pv15 are offered with remote but slightly more neutral...

These tubes I'm referring to are the Mullard M8080, they're at the highest level of musicality when it comes to Input gain stage. The Classic preamp was designed solely based on these tubes, and then for some darn reason, JF took over the business and discontinued the Classic preamp and introduced the Classic 2, which had a single 6922, so pretty much heading towards the ET series...

This Classic 2 was no where like the original Classic preamp, and the 6922 tube is the very same tube used throughout the new ET series and in the Gat series as well.

So, if you're after that Golden glow, that I do very much like myself then I can highly recommend the Classic preamp, which has a more modern golden glow... more clean and very smooth with a warm velvet touch, and not too neutral or sterile sounding. It will also be better than the vintage PV series preamps, and you're getting the Mullards!

The Classic pre also comes in the SE version, which includes a few Teflons and Vishays, making it even quieter and more musical, it's a superb no frills, no gizmos, no bells & whistles preamp, as simple as it gets, and it gets everything just right!

If I was considering a CJ Classic tube preamp, this is the one I'd choose. It's a marvellous preamp.

I just saw AJ's post and agree 100%! Simply because, you're altering the simplicity of the CAV45... the whole concept of the CAV45 is no linestage preamp! This eliminates the colorations of a linestsge and gets out of the way, that's why the CAV45 sounds so pure. It's also very tricky to match with the right type of speakers. It prefers easy loads with higher efficiency ratings. So the CAV45 /S2 is not a beast.

The moment you add in a preamp, you're adding in a linestsge. Which means you're going into pre-power territory once again. If you are considering this type of pre-power combination then as AJ very rightly pointed out, you're far better off with an ET3SE or ET6 and a Classic 62 or even the older Classic 60/se.

Mind you, the Classic 60 and 62 (non SE versions) are actually fitted with EL34's. I think this is the output tube that you seem to prefer... whereas the SE versions are fitted with KT120's, so this may not be to your liking.
With either the Classic 60 or 62, partnered with any of the ET series preamps, will give you what you're looking for.
There's really no point in adding a preamp into a CAV45... doesn't make good sense. The only reason why my CJ dealer did this was to add more digital sources during his demos, simply because the CAV45 has only 3 Inputs.

I would consider what AJ says and give it some thought... I think this whole golden glow thing has started your itch... in which case might as well go for separates once again. After having gone the CAV45 route... do you really want to go back into separate pre-power? Something only you can answer.

Hope all goes well,
RJ

[Paolo]

Again, many thanks to you all. I'm a newbie when it comes to cj and so your insights are especially valuable. RJ- thanks for the history lesson which I find extremely useful.

RJ has pretty much nailed it when he wrote: "I think this whole golden glow thing has started your itch."

Yes indeed sir, yes indeed. It certainly has.

I bought the Luxman SS integrated thinking it was time to "get off the tube roller coaster." What I didn't realize is that after decades of using tube gear, that was a false assumption on my part, and I simply just gotta have my tubes!

So for now, as I explore possibilities, I will happily listen to the CAV45 as it was designed. Stand alone. I'll likely put the Luxman up for sale eventually.

Be well and as RJ says, enjoy those fine tunes.

[AnotherJohnson]

Another way to seek a golden glow is to choose artists and recordings from the 50’s and 60’s.

Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra,
Dinah Shore, Lee Morgan, Coleman Hawkins, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel… lots of smooth, sweet artists and recordings.

Pick a neutral system and it will properly render the warmth of the era and genre.

[Paolo]

Another way to seek a golden glow is to choose artists and recordings from the 50’s and 60’s.

Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra,
Dinah Shore, Lee Morgan, Coleman Hawkins, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel… lots of smooth, sweet artists and recordings.

Pick a neutral system and it will properly render the warmth of the era and genre.

Hey AJ, I love it! That's why I kept my Blue Note Vinyl when I donated my rock vinyl to the local Rotary.

This morning I put the Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage in storage for the time-being and brought out the modded Maggie MMGS complete with MYE stands. The synergy between the CAV45s2 and the Maggies is excellent. Ironic, perhaps but more pleasant for me to listen to than the GH's. I find the presentation to be much more like music and much less like "hi-fi." Go figure.

Right now The Three Sounds are partying in my small dedicated listening space.

[AnotherJohnson]

Everyone likes the Maggie/CJ combo. It’s fun to have options.

[Paolo]

Everyone likes the Maggie/CJ combo. It’s fun to have options.

I've had Maggies in one form or another on and off for decades. When I saw these MMG's at a mom and pop stereo store a few months ago, I couldn't resist. Whoever did the mods knew what he/she was doing. That, and the fact the speakers came with Mye stands and were cosmetically almost perfect - well how could I resist? Little did I know what a wonderful combination the MMG's would be with the CAV 45s2.

So, for now and for who knows how long, the Guarneri Homages are hidden away from the cats and other potential harm. Fortunately, neither cat has shown any interest in the MMG's and repurposed them as scratching posts.

[AnotherJohnson]

If you’ve got pets that shed AND stats, you may want to set up a regular schedule for stat panel vacuuming.

[admin]

Luckily, the maggies are easier to clean because they have the cloth on pretty much all time. I was always anxious about vacuuming my Margin Logan Vantages even though ML says it's fine to do.