Any ideas on the Sonographe SG3 turntable?

[tonye]

There's a Sonographe SG3-SP turntable on eBay.

Over the years I've thought about getting a 2nd turntable, except that in the end I keep updating my Linn LP12....

Any ideas on this one?

Any experience with it? How good is it?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304700102876?h ... BM7qDGy9lh

[admin]

It's an interesting unit. I guess the question is what are you hoping to achieve with this turntable. If you are looking for a 2nd setup with a less than $1k TT, then this may be a good option. This is rather old and there is not going to be much support for it so just keep in mind that if you have any technical issues, it's going to be hard to remedy. As much as I love anything with the words "Conrad Johnson" printed on it, I doubt this will be in the same class as your LP12.

If you are looking for a more trouble free experience but in a similar price range, maybe look at something like a lower end Rega.

[AnotherJohnson]

I was at Overture in Ann Arbor the other day and noted a new brand, Rekkord.

Tom explained to me that the German marque, Dual, had sold the rights to their history and name, but had been resurrected in the Black Forest under the name Rekkord.

They are supposedly using local suppliers and local labor to build a range of products after the Rega style, but at price points even lower than Rega.

Tom said that they appear to him to be excellent value for the money. As noted, they’re built in the Black Forest region famous for clock making and other highly skilled work.

I think their entry level table with arm was under $500.

I still maintain a Dual for my collection of 78s.

[tonye]

Hmm.. maybe a better use for my money is to get the Linn Karousel bearing.

My idea here was to get a 2nd TT for a putative second system. I've been thinking that since I'm getting a new FET balanced line stage and I'm using a truly out of this World Pearl 2 phono preamp, I might put the PV9's phono preamp to good use in a 2nd system and then I could do comparisons.

But, it would seem that it just won't sound nearly as good as my LP12... which has the Trampolin, Ittok, Lingo upgrades... new suspension, motor, belt etc... recently tweaked, all black... never mind the cost of getting yet another cartridge.

Oh well, nevermind. I have no interest in buying a new TT as my current one is truly magical.

[AnotherJohnson]

Hmm.. maybe a better use for my money is to get the Linn Karousel bearing.

The Karousel is a cost effective upgrade. I had Tom O’Keefe do it on my Ekos SE/Keel/Radikal/Etna/Harban plinth deck.

Peter Swain of Cymbiosis is right up there with Tom as an international LP12 Fettler of high regard. Even though Tom got the sale since I’m a days drive from AA and a long flight from Leicestershire, Peter highly recommended the Karousel, and noted that it would continue to improve over the first 200 hours. Peter has always been my most loved coach and LP12 mentor. But either Tom or Peter will steer you well.

The truth is that any level of properly working LP12 will run rings around comparably priced competition if it’s been set up well. The old CJ TT is not in the same class.

[tonye]

I was actually advised not to move up to the Ekos and stay with my Ittok.

By a guy who knows about such things and has no financial interests in selling stuff: he's retired and just fixes LP12s for fun.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think the Ittok is a fine arm. It offers all the set up choices of the Ekos series. There were several versions and I have owned them all. The original had a 3/4” diameter arm pillar. Later it was beefed up to a 1” diameter pillar, and in the final version, they added a third fixing point between the head shell and the cartridge to accommodate the Troika and later Linn badged higher level cartridges.

I think your guy offered you good advice. Until you go to the Keel subchassis, you won’t get the refinement that the Ekos SE can provide. Putting an Ekos on the deck as I think you’ve described it would not have much payoff. Certainly not commensurate with the cost of the arm.

I’ve built several LP12s from scratch over my 40 year love affair with the LP12. Fettling LP12s is addictive, and they are more forgiving than many think.

I stand in awe of Peter Swain and Tom O’Keefe. If you’re looking for advice on how to take your LP12 to the next level (and I’m sure that you’re not), consulting with either would be well worthwhile. I was gob struck by Tom’s skills this past year and feel very fortunate that he was able to advise me and tune up both of my decks.

FWIW, there are many who like the sound of the original LP12 subchassis, bearing, and Ittok over later upgrades. I like the new sound better … but it is good to have choices.

[tonye]

Actually, now that you bring it up.... he wasn't very happy with the design of the SE itself.. he said they'd cheapen the manufacturing. He likes the Ekos proper....

My set up now started with a Valhalla, ( circa early 90s ) moved up to a Lingo, new motor and recently I had the springs replaced, a Trampolin and a complete tweak ( dang, these things are tweakable!).... Also installed the new Grado Master 2 which was a PITA to install because you can't see the stylus when setting it up -massive wooden body.

He set it up so statically the arm provides 2 gm of tracking force, no need for the weight, and I believe there is no anti skating either force either. The guy believes in setting up the stylus... cartridge was well built and aligned, phew!, and we had a long conversation about which geometry he prefers. Honestly, I'd need a couple of drinks to remember, all I know is that it just sounds veeeeeeeeeeery good.

What always amazes me about the Linn is its design ethos: simple, not flashy, but veeeeeeeery good sounding. When I hear other turntables they sound... DEAD, boring.

It's like this... the Linn is for people that on hearing Beethoven's 2nd Symphony want to get up and DANCE.... you can see that in the audience... some heads are swinging to the music, the only emotion we are allowed in the Anglo-Saxon world. The other turntables are for people who sit there, emotionless, missing the pace and magic of the music washing over their heads.

Hmmm.... I'm now listening to the First movement... about 7 minutes into it.... Frickin' BRILLIANT. IMHO the First and Second are underrated. Get Up And Dance...

[AnotherJohnson]

Your ears, your system.
But on the Ekos vs Ekos SE, the opinion you attribute to him is exactly opposite the reality.

From Linn at the time:

DESIGN FOCUS ON THE EKOS SE BEARING HOUSING In the development of the Ekos SE virtually every component has changed, however we will focus on the bearing housing. The horizontal bearing housing has undergone extensive modification, however the primary engineering goals have remained the same; the bearing assembly must be very rigid, resonance free, temperature stable and free from play whilst maintaining extremely low levels of friction. The improvements we have made over the original Ekos tonearm include machining the bearing mating surfaces to an even higher tolerance and better surface finish. This improves the fit between the bearings and the housing which ensures minimum friction. All mounting and assembly holes are finished to the highest standards and where possible have been moved outside the central bearing area, ensuring a stress free assembly that will not distort once assembled into the main arm unit. The wall thickness of the bearing assembly has been increased approximately three fold. This increases the strength and also considerably reduces resonance throughout the arm. Reduction in the number of components ensures that the arm is mounted directly to the arm collar rather than being mounted via an additional tube assembly. The strength of the single component avoids the risk of distortion and ensures minimum loss of information when locked together.”

If you remember his thoughts correctly, he is one of few who did not recognize the higher build quality and material selection of the SE. there were two models of the SE, the latest one having an extended head shell.

There’s been a lot of speculation about whether a new flagship arm would be forthcoming this year to celebrate the 50th Anniversary. But most serious players are hard pressed to propose how the current model could be improved.

In any event, you don’t need an Ekos or Ekos SE until you’ve addressed the subchassis. Even with the Kore, the late model Ittok is enough. My Kore/Ittok/Kleos deck sounds beautiful, but in a “bake off,” the differences are Klear.

[tonye]

Well, I remember his comments about this quite Klearly.

The think about KLinn is that the Kcost should Kescalate very Kiquly. He klearly stated that they had cheapened the kuality of the manufacturing of the toneram.

Maybe I should remember my own Krule: every drink is worth $5000 of component Kupgrades.. But only up to four Kdrinks. After that it all turns Kmonophonic because I'm laid out on the Kouch, unable to move, with one Kear stuck on the Kpillows.

Klear on that....

[AnotherJohnson]

There was an old guy out in your neck of the woods who was refurbishing and resurrecting old LP12s. Maybe it’s the same guy. It sounds like it. LP12s have been around for 50 years. There are a lot of experts. Hold the Ekos and the Ekos SE in your own hands, and see if you think he’s right.

Or don’t. I do think he’s right in your case. You’ve described your whole approach to listening and evaluating. I think you’ve reached a local optimum based on your objectives and constraints. Enjoy those fine tunes!

[tonye]

Dan is his name. ( keep his last name off the public Internet ). He's not that old. I've spoken with another guy up in the Valley who works on them, but Dan is in The OC and much closer to me.

Short of the four drink rule (!!) my system keeps expanding ( I get attached to stuff, can't sell them ). It keeps getting better.

After the amps, preamp and perhaps power supply for the Pearl, I think I'll do the Karousel.

The Keel, at $3000 bucks is a bit too rich for what I want to spend. I keep looking for a used one, or at least an LP12 on sale that has one, but they're too new and unobtanium in the used market. I have seen non Linn substitutes but I'm leery of messing a round with those. I figure Linn spends a considerable amount of time on R&D (*) so I don't begrudge their pricing. Just likely not in my comfort league... for the time being.

I also have no plans on another brand. I figure another used turntable will put me, by the time I'm done with the cartridge, in the 3000 dollar range... so at that point I could have gotten the Keel. Huh? Linn is surely cagey with their pricing, eh?

The main reason why I've been thinking about a 2nd turntable is for a strain gauge or one of them optical cartridges. It would be a second source to the front end. But again... might as well get the Keel and a better cartridge.

Decisions, decisions... and meantime I want to retire.

BTW- My Tony's Four Drink Rule Of Audio Upgrades was published under "Letters to the Editor" in the early 90s both at The Absolute Sound and Stereophile. Those were the days when you had to work to get a "Letter to the Editor". I got rather good at formatting them... got them in the LA Times several times too. My college Alma Matter too.... With the Internet, it has become trivial. People today have NO sense of humor and take themselves way too seriously.

BTWII- I should have taken the offer from Harry Pearson to review for TAS -we had some correspondence for a while. Then "serious" audiophiles would kiss the ground I step on and I'd get the preferred seat at the shows. Have you ever followed Mike Fremer into a demo at an audio show? Try to do that, you'll end up sitting next to him at one of the best seats! Boy, them manufacturers kiss his ass.

(*) Maybe they just sit around drinking whiskey and playing tunes... who knows... nice job, really.

[AnotherJohnson]

It is a nice job made possible by not actually needing a nice job.

Tom Gillet, alias Sam Tellig, was The Audio Cheapskate. Lots of folks read his work because he was telling them how to achieve Nirvana on a modest budget. There is a need.

I had put together a vintage system about 20 years ago, based on components from one to two decades previous. I entertained one producer who was stunned by what I’d assembled for a grand total cash investment of about $5k.

I have a decent long term audio memory. I’ve thought I’d achieved something close to the ultimate many times over the last 35 years. But these last few years prove me wrong.

I think the most important thing is that you enjoy your system. FOMO is bad for the budget. Better to focus on the music.

Fremmer was smart enough to stay away from the recent LP12 review. Reviewing an LP12 is a no win proposition due to the genuine hostility towards Linn. I abandoned them myself at one time, but returned when I realized that the LP12 is one helluva kit in all of its many incarnations. .

[tonye]

Tom Gillet though did review some rather expensive units though.

I loved his style of writing... it was very off the cuff, more like a conversation.. and very funny with an ongoing cast of characters.

Was his wife Russian?

I guess I don't understand why Linn gets so much hate.

Could it be because it shows that many of the competition are just charlatans... I mean, a full blown Linn LP12 will run in the mid $20K or something like that.... and, IMHO, it blows the stuff others are selling for $100K.

Linn got it right to begin with and has worked on refining it with nothing being revolutionary. When people look at my table (all black, btw) they don't understand why it costs so much. I love how Linn has kept the form simple while spending the money on the function.... which in the case of a mechanical device such a turntable is all about vibration and speed control. Those bearings and milling operations are not cheap.

[AnotherJohnson]

It’s easy to understand why people don’t like Linn. Ivor Tiefenbrun was closed minded, dictatorial, and whimsical. Many people were put off. If there was a problem, it was always the incompetent customer’s fault. Only a trained dealer should ever touch the table. If there was a problem with a Linn badged cartridge, again it was the customer’s fault.

Ivor made many enemies, especially in the audio press where his hubris and arrogance butted spang up against the arrogance and hubris of pigheaded know it all reviewers.

Harry Weisfeld and others were personable and showed more humility and accommodation. It was easy to pan Linn.

I’ve had at least one LP12 in my system for nearly 40 years.
My first had the Zenor Diode Mod, and then the Valhalla Mod. The Ittok on that table was series 1. It had the picture frame fluted afromosia plinth with slots for the original dust cover struts, the original top plate and base board.

I’ve done several full LP12 builds over the decades. I’ve got the setup jig and all the special tools. At one time (decades ago) I set them up for a local dealer.

My current best LP12 sports the serial number of my original 1978 deck. The factory has updated the status several times.

Linn is a real engineering company. With real engineers, real manufacturing, real quality control, and a 50 year commitment to supporting the LP12.

I may like Harry Weisfeld better than Ivor Tiefenbrun, but the latter makes the better turntables in my opinion. Of course YMMV.

[tonye]

Just spoke with Dan.

Gonna run about $1500 to upgrade to a Karousel... doing it. Gonna give him a bunch of cash tomorrow so he can order it. Says Linn is selling tons of them because they are a "very significant" upgrade and it may take six weeks to get it. I'm actually gonna pay retail for this, but I get a deal in the labor and clean up as he did my table four years ago so I qualify as a returning customer.

End result is that I'll get the new bearing and the table will be retuned -which it doesn't need but it has to be done.

Still holding onto the Lingo, unless I can find a used Lingo-4 for a good price.

I'm psyched about this... because my table right now sounds extremely good... to think it will sound better.... just as my system keeps sounding better.

Oh, the SiT amp was fully powered up today on the bench... some tweaking going on with the bias. Reports are that it sounds awesome...

[AnotherJohnson]

The Karousel is a good upgrade. Peter Swain says it improves as it wears in over the first 200 hours. My experience seems to corroborate this. My REF Phono 3 keeps track of hours. I’m about halfway to 200, and it does seem to get better every week.

At the same time, I’m still running the Cirkus kit on the lesser deck (with Kore, Ittok, Tramp2, Lyra Kleos, Mover Maxxon, etc), and it sounds great too. If it weren’t for comparison, I’d think it was close to the top.

[tonye]

Had a long conversation with Dan, ordered the Karousel.

I have to take my earlier assertion back... Dan loves the Ekos SE.

I just learned that there was an Ittok LV-III It was the first run of Ekos. I doubt Dan will sell me his.

After the Karousel... I will have to start saving for the Lingo 4. And after that an Ortofon Cadenza Brown or Black... yikes!

[AnotherJohnson]

I think you’ll like the Lingo 4. LP12s are very capable in every form … best TT 50 years running.

[tonye]

I'm in luck. Turns out that when my order got placed there was ONE available Karousel available. So I won't have to wait 10 to 12 weeks for the next production batch.