Is CJ still in business?

[tonye]

WHY are the LP275M not compatible with the P20?

Too much in rush current on start up?

[AnotherJohnson]

Here’s a pic of the P20 display while playing The Man in the Long Black Coat with volume set on 23 (a modest level on a track that has modest bass content).

IMG_0689.jpeg (2.84 MiB) Viewed 12461 times

It’s around a kiloWatt. Note the distortion of the power in and the power out. The P20 is much better at getting distortion out than the P12 on my TVA power.

The other things on (besides the amps and preamp) are the Node (not in use though), the Rossini, and the Nucleus. The Levinson 5101, MCT500 and MDA200 are all on standby drawing only a very tiny bit.

If I play a cut with a lot of bass and I crank up the preamp to over 30 (too loud to enjoy for most programs), the P20 can get up over 1000. But for the P20 on the C19 input to a 20 amp circuit, 1000 is loafing. On the P12 there’s still headroom, but not nearly as much.

One thing to note is that Jeff’s right that you can put everything on a single dedicated outlet. The ARC and CJ amps have similar efficiencies. I put my CJ gear on one power strip at his recommendation for years and it sounded great.

While the P20 is not straining, the important headroom is in your amps’ power supply caps. Instantaneous power drawn to the load does not come instantaneously from the wall. It comes from your amps’ ability to keep up with transients, and that’s pretty much driven by their onboard PS. Modern CJ and ARC and other high end amps are built for this strength.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, that's correct on those sort of devices. Including the ones I've used before at our apartment few years ago. The load from two monoblocks would crank the power conditioner all the way to nearly full capacity! So the wattage draw showing on such devices is correct. After all, there's a lot of additional circuitry in these sort of devices and they will indicate as intended provided they work properly. Once they slowly deteriorate, that's anorher issue.

I think mixed up my figures ... what I meant was that power output on most loud passages are around 50w the most. Anything above that, you'd go deaf! If I had stated in my previous post otherwise, I'm sorry about that, and didn't intend to confuse.

Also, what Eve Anne was trying to explain is that during initial power up, there's a massive surge of everything, watts, voltage and amperage. Once the amplifiers are settled in, they calm down and as long as the AC mains is steady then all other factors remain stable. If voltage fluctuations are present, this adversely affects the power output (watts) of the power amp/s, and this is what causes most power amps to fail in heavy duty tasks. Similarly amperage of the power amps must be stable enough to provide the rated power output. If any of these two elements (amperage & voltage) are unstable then power output sags.

On AC mains, it's good to have at least 10amp circuits. If you want to, you can install 15amp circuits or 20amp circuits but if the power amps only require so much then 10amps is more than adequate. Again, these applications are domestic hifi, not welding machines nor live rock concerts.

During my ownership of high powered monoblocks; CJ, Marley Labs, Melos 400 Triodes, ARC, Parasound, Bryston, Krell, Jamo, Jeff Rowland, Carver Sunfire, and Class'e to name a few of the memorable ones, during power up, the CB's always tripped. Only after I followed Eve Anne's advise (install dedicated 10A circuits on separate CB's and power up one monoblock at a time, wait for 40secs to power up the second one) and all was well!
I also noticed on certain power conditioners and such devices I used at the time, across different countries, once those wattage draws settled in, they would hover around the 500w mark or above. So high powered amplifiers do require dedicated AC lines to work best. Not on shared circuits with the rest of household appliances.

Never had any major issues since, and now I don't use any such devices, they're not necessary in my current location.

In cases where there are issues with AC mains distribution, I must say the PS Audio devices are fantastic! They do a marvellous job. Well worth the investment. PSA and the Shunyata power units are probably the only ones I'd use if I had any issues with AC mains. If you don't then don't worry about it, just enjoy those fine tunes!

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

There are no 10 amp lines in the USA. Our standard is 120 VAC, and minimum code for a house is 15 amp to each outlet.

That’s only 1800 Watts. Because of efficiency issues, the regenerator will be lucky to put out about 1500 Watts. It may be plenty, but on a 20 amp line, there’s no debate.

[admin]

A standard 15A home circuit should be able to handle our requirements for all our gear. The question is whether the power is clean and has steady voltage.

[tonye]

Hmm.. the "standard" NA home circuit can put more than 1800w (15A) on a peak.. the wiring and the breaker will allow that. So, it will handle transients as when a high power device turns on and there's an on rush of current: motors, capacitors. (*)

It seems like the "regenerators" can not do this... as they have 0db of dynamic range? A maximum of 12.5A @ 1500w/120VAC.

I recall seeing some big power amps that came with two AC cords. The idea was that a 20A line could deliver more than a single 15A outlet could. So by plugging into two outlets in the same line the amp could get the full 20A from the line.

So, the solutions are simple....

(1) Get an AC homerun with 20A outlets.
(2) Put a solar battery on that line... they can generate 30A and can be isolated when using them as the source of power.
(3) Use a variac to power up the amps.

I still don't understand the point of spending big bucks on consumer "regenerators" when lab quality AC power supplies are around that are superior in performance and price. Other than the looks, I guess.

Perhaps the regenerators should have a bypass so that on peaks that require more than their rated power, they can draw some power from the grid. Naturally this would also require that both the input and output would be in phase.

(*) Hmm.. I wonder how those regenerators would handle the reactance of a big motor turning on...

[AnotherJohnson]

A standard 15A home circuit should be able to handle our requirements for all our gear. The question is whether the power is clean and has steady voltage.

It’s another YMMV situation.

Several high end manufacturers recommend a dedicated 20 amp line for each amp. I ran with that set up for years. The Krell KSA150s were reported to be able to double down on the current draw as the load dropped, all the way to the limits of the breaker.

While ARC won’t do that, (and neither will CJ), ARC recommends separate 20 amp circuits for each amp.

At one time I would have pooh poohed the idea as being just silly.

But after the last two years, the power cords, speaker cables, interconnects, ISP issues, etc, I have to wonder what a second P20 on a different breaker would do.

CJ is unique in the advice that putting everything on one 15 amp circuit is a good idea. I’ve never seen it from any others, and I’ve had a lot of gear here.

[admin]

As long as the breaker doesn't fault with the power on cycle, it shouldn't matter as the only time you need the power to be consistent is with real time listening. So yes you may see the lights dim in the house for a second when the amps kick on which would signify a transient voltage drop, but once that is passed there really should be no problems. I use a voltage regulator not because I need 120v for that half a second heavy draw at startup, but rather that my electric company can't provide a standard 120v supply. I often have a 10V range depending on the day and time. That is what I am trying to regulate and that has nothing to do with my amp power requirement.

But you are right. YMMV so I'm not saying my experience is the law. I have two 15A lines and one 20A line in my listening room. Total power draw from the system is under 1000W even at higher volumes. I've never had a breaker trip. However, I have the same junk power from all three circuits. 126V one day, 115V the other...

[AnotherJohnson]

As long as the breaker doesn't fault with the power on cycle, it shouldn't matter as the only time you need the power to be consistent is with real time listening.

I would agree with you if I still believed that there are only two states of SQ. On and off.

The power quality issue and the non breaker tripping instantaneous demand are both audible.

The reason JF is negative about power conditioners, and others often agree, is that anything you put between you and the wall has the potential to limit the ability to meet demand. Can you hear it? Some believe they can.

I did not notice much difference with my Niagara 1200s. But I did notice a strong positive change with the P12 on the REF75SE. I was never able to try the LP275Ms on the P12. The hum was bad, but turning on the second amp could shut things down. The hum was so horrible that it didn’t matter.

But the LP275Ms did not want to be on the P20 either.

[Big Dog RJ]

There are no 10 amp lines in the USA. Our standard is 120 VAC, and minimum code for a house is 15 amp to each outlet.

That’s only 1800 Watts. Because of efficiency issues, the regenerator will be lucky to put out about 1500 Watts. It may be plenty, but on a 20 amp line, there’s no debate.

Yes, I'm well aware of that, have lived there for over a decade during my undergrad years. Mostly between IL and IN state. Having lived most of my life in European based voltage though (13amp with 240v) we're used to those three flat-pin type plugs & AC wall outlets with separate grounding and built-in 13amp fuses in the plugs. When I first came across the US standard plugs, I thought they were quite unusual. Pins are both flat, one's wider than the other and the ground is a round pin type. Then when I came across the Aussie based plugs, now that was taking the mickey! What the heck are those I thought to myself... referred to as slanted pins or crows feet type plugs. Out of the three types, I prefer the US type plugs & outlets, simply because they're more solid in their connection. They don't wiggle one bit and have a really good grip. Over here there are electricians who will do the change over plug types if required but most are against it due to this type of mod being non-standard & breach of code. I know a few who have done it for their audio systems, they say it sounds great and makes a difference, I don't know. Some have gone to the extremes where they've changed all their AC outlets and plug types to a full suite of Furutech plugs. Even on the AC walls. I do have all Furutech's top to bottom on all the Nordost power cords but none on the AC wall outlets. I don't see the point in that, other than looks fancy!

Over here, our standard is 10amp circuits, there are circuits for bedroom suites that are 5amps, nothing more. You can install 15amp or 20amp if required but for my particular gear it's not required. Also the moment I disconnected all those power conditioners and other AC power gadgets, the performance really opened up. The level of transparency and dynamics shifted onto another dimension. One very critical chap commented on my system when I first got the CLX's. He said he's heard far better from these full range stats and advised not to use any of those AC conditioners unless it was very necessary. So just to try his advise, we disconnected it all and parked those devices to a side. Plugged everything into one Nordost QBase8 power board then onto the QX4 and directly to the wall, what a difference! Never used any of those gadgets again,

However, like I said if your particular location does experience bad AC mains with constant voltage fluctuations, and it doesn't help with tube amps because the bias settings aren't stable then I would highly recommend either the PSA units or the Shunyata AC power solutions. They're not too affordable but they do a fantastic job in assisting with AC power solutions that is required for high performance audio systems. It's a must!
At least when you have sorted out your AC mains power requirements, your system WILL sound better, there's no denying it.

Cheers, RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

It's a bit funny that this thread started out as whether or not CJ is still in business... then ARC nearly went bust and all sorts of speculations were flying haywire like a thunder storm, and now we're talking about AC mains...uh?

Anyway, getting back to the original question, yes CJ is very much still in business and so is ARC, at least they've found a new owner and things will start rolling again one way or the other.
Woof! RJ

[tonye]

Thanks

Still don't know if they will do the SE upgrade to an ET preamp.

I guess I'll have to go through the dealer.

I don't understand how some of you get through to Jeff while others don't. Does he have a list?

I guess I figure that when the PV9 breaks ( it has a habit of going through diodes ) it will become a boat anchor.

[AnotherJohnson]

It's a bit funny that this thread started out as whether or not CJ is still in business... then ARC nearly went bust and all sorts of speculations were flying haywire like a thunder storm, and now we're talking about AC mains...uh?

Anyway, getting back to the original question, yes CJ is very much still in business and so is ARC, at least they've found a new owner and things will start rolling again one way or the other.
Woof! RJ

I would have closed the thread after page 2 if it were up to me. In fact, when it turned nasty due to the inability of some to demonstrate reading comprehension, I recommended it. But here it is, big as life.

The most recent ramble was due to my asking about CJ’s current position on power conditioning. The answer was that they are still recommending things like the Cardas power strip that do not offer either high voltage or low voltage protections. At the same time, their gear seems to prefer the input voltage range of about 120 +/- 5 in the US.

As for ARC, if it had not been necessary for TWS to transfer to Lighthouse, no one would have recognized the ARC hiccup. At ARC, except for the Internet forum doomsday prophets, it’s been business as usual. The ownership issue was transparent to dealers and customers. There has been no advertised discounting. No fire sale.

I think that when the new owner is revealed, this will be recognized as a positive change for all.

[tonye]

You know... you don't have to post if you don't want....

Anyhow, I tried again with the CJ web page... I sent them a message -again- asking about the ET SE upgrade. Hopefully they'll reply.

If not, I'll try the local dealer, the one that got CJ to ship me the tubes...

Hopefully I'll find out. There is a used ET on audiogon and it might be a good upgrade to go to the an ET-SE from the PV9 (Teflon caps and now new Russkie tubes).

I'll post it here when I find out.

Power conditioning and strips.. Is CJ concerned about the ground plane? If so, does it make any difference if the components are plugged into outlets that share the same box and ground? The homerun to my 2ch set up is broken out to two boxes, each with six hospital grade outlets. So they all share the same ground and neutral. Currently I got three amps hooked up on one side, each to its own outlet. I noticed the other day that when I had the Aleph 2s and the SIT amp hooked up and turned on (*) I heard a very low noise repeating noise (almost like a hum ramping up and down ) on the speakers hooked up to the Alephs. When I turned off the SIT the noise went away. I imagine this was an interaction coming through the neutral wire? I don't know.


(*) I don't do that often since that is about 1100 watts of power at idle and SoCal's electric rates are crazy.

[admin]

I would have closed the thread after page 2 if it were up to me. In fact, when it turned nasty due to the inability of some to demonstrate reading comprehension, I recommended it. But here it is, big as life.

I think you make a valid point. I try to take a very "hands off" approach to moderating CJO,... perhaps to the overall detriment to the board? This does sometimes lead to tangents in some topics,... especially the more controversial or opinion based ones.

The most recent ramble was due to my asking about CJ’s current position on power conditioning. The answer was that they are still recommending things like the Cardas power strip that do not offer either high voltage or low voltage protections. At the same time, their gear seems to prefer the input voltage range of about 120 +/- 5 in the US.

You often comment about equipment with the phrase "YMMV." And I think this a fundamental truth. The P12 elevated your ARC based system and the P20 even more so. Yet, they degraded the CJ gear. There are no absolutes. A specific component may improve one system and harm another. At the end of the day, we must listen to our ears.

[admin]

Power conditioning and strips.. Is CJ concerned about the ground plane? If so, does it make any difference if the components are plugged into outlets that share the same box and ground? The homerun to my 2ch set up is broken out to two boxes, each with six hospital grade outlets. So they all share the same ground and neutral. Currently I got three amps hooked up on one side, each to its own outlet. I noticed the other day that when I had the Aleph 2s and the SIT amp hooked up and turned on (*) I heard a very low noise repeating noise (almost like a hum ramping up and down ) on the speakers hooked up to the Alephs. When I turned off the SIT the noise went away. I imagine this was an interaction coming through the neutral wire? I don't know.


(*) I don't do that often since that is about 1100 watts of power at idle and SoCal's electric rates are crazy.

In certain setups CJ gear can suffer from ground loops. To minimize this phenomena with CJ gear, I believe Jeff feels it best to have all components plugged into the same outlet/strip with as little complexity as possible.

Ground loops are inherently hard to predict and depend on a multitude of factors. Technically they should never happen (presuming the home is wired to code,...) but yet they do.

[tonye]

As the OP, I created this thread to discuss how difficult it is to get feedback from the CJ factory... I'd been trying to get a set of tubes for my PV9.

In the course of the thread, some people accused me ( in general ) of being "cheap", of having old equipment for which I should not expect the factory to support, etc, etc... after doing this, they called for the thread to be closed... and then they went off on a discussion of power grounds...

As the OP I don't mind ( well.. I don't like being called cheap.. let me just say I've invested more TIME on the actual engineering than most people will spend on money -to buy their way out of not doing the engineering proper..).

But, I don't mind if people want to tangent... just don't go around calling the pot black afterwards.

Anyhow, I'm surprised you would need a strip if you have, say, a set of six or eight hospital grade outlets in the same box. Connected by their own internals with romex they ought to be superior at sharing the ground plane and the neutral/hot wires than anything else. If your AC is not up to code then, as I have recommended already, the very first thing you ought to do is to fix it. Upgrade the wall AC first!

What Jeff is suggesting is the simplest way to start this... but spending 3000 bucks or a super-duper-audiophile device to "fix" the AC ground seems somewhat pointless. The AC should be fixed first.

Just like using "room-correction" in the HT crowd. If your room sounds good and if you have clean AC with good signal and good grounds you're 60% of the way to great sound.

Anyhow, part 2, I will post on what I find out about the SE upgrade. Hopefully they'd do it. The upgrade to my PV9 ran 2000 bucks (that was combined with repairs and a general inspection/maintenance of the preamp).

[tonye]

Good news... I got a reply from Jasmine.... it will be $1500 for the line stage and $2000 including the phono.

Now, to see if that preamp is still available...

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! Good one Jasmine, must have suddenly fallen off the chair after running out of make-up or filing her ...

That pricing sounds about right. There was another chap here in Aus-land, who got his ET3 upgraded to the SE version and fitted with phonostage. It's sounding quite good, and he's happy as! Partnered with a Classic 62se driving Kharma Ref speakers, sounding fab!
The finish on those Kharma's is exquisite! Really nice dark purple. It sort of turns light purple during the day and diamond black at nights. Never seen this type of finish.

Hope you can get your ET preamp sorted out, it will definitely be a massive step up from the vintage PV series.
Cheers, RJ

[tonye]

To be truly honest, the ET SE preamp is purely a luxury proposition. I'm still chasing the BA3 FET balanced preamp... but, as with such design/build projects, that will take a while, perhaps a year. So in the meantime I need a preamp with a 20VPP swing to drive the FW F4 amp ( no voltage gain, only current buffer ).

If the PV9 fails me then I'm hosed since none of my other preamps will swing the full 15 V, even driving an autoformer, required to swing the little AN speakers. I'm been thinking of a TVC too but I like how the CJ preamp has been treating the sounds all these years. I almost bought a ARC used preamp, SE version with balanced, but it didn't swing enough volts!

So now I'm off to find the preamp...

Someday I'd like to hear the deal with Jasmine...