Hello from Paris and a question

[Noventa98]

Hello everyone,

I have owned my CJ Premier 140 amp and premier 17LS preamp for almost twenty years. They’ve been driving a pair of Guarneri Sonus Fabre speakers ever since. The system is completed by Vpi turntable and a PrimaLuna CD player. Very happy with my setup which was originally thought mostly for classical and jazz music but has also been used to play modern pop music.

The setup has been working very well for me and it hasn’t been touched ever since (a part for some repair and tube replacement). In recent ears my kids have been using it more and more to plug in their phones via the 3.5mm plug connected to an aux rca input on the preamp. To do so we need to increase the volume of the preamp quite a bit.

Of course this solution is not ideal especially for the quality of the signal coming from the internal dac of the smartphone or tablet. I am also not sure that pumping up the volume on the preamp is very tactful with its electronics.

So,I started looking around for some add up to my setup which would not break the bank. I looked at several models of dac or dac+amp and the more I read the more I get confused about what will work best or good enough.

After reading posts and reviews I was intrigued with the Chird Mojo 2, which is a headphone and desktop dac. But other devices pur dac or dac+amp have retained my attention too. And since I am in these new waters I am also considering throwing in a network streamer like blue sound node (Or a much cheaper one like wiim pro).

Knowing that for ease of use and quality of sound I’d rather privilege a wired connection to the smartphone, what solution have you adopted to add a dac and/or a network streamer? Can all of these go in the preamp and what inputs should be used? Is there some potential issue with impedance and voltage which I should consider prior to purchase or for the setup of the devices?

Very grateful for your input.

Best,
Tony

[admin]

Noventa98,
First, let me welcome you to CJO. Great to have you with us!

Congrats on the great setup that has stood the test of time.

As for your specific solutions I think we need a little more info.

1) The first thing I would ask is what is the source of the music on their phone? Are the kids basically streaming music to their phone and then play via the 3.5 mm output jack or they specifically want to play music files that are stored on their phone. If it's streaming music, I would be looking at a streamer specifically.

2) If using a streaming as the source, what streaming service do they use? Different streamers support different services so that will narrow down the recommendations.

3) What is the intent of adding these digital sources? Are you mostly looking for volume equalization or are you looking for top notch audio quality sound? If mostly volume equalization, a streamer's analog outs connected to the preamp will be fine. If your intent is the best audio quality on the market, then I would be looking at both a streamer and a DAC, with most of the budget going toward the DAC. Paul McGowan from PS Audio recommends that the DAC be the #1 priority in a DAC/Source combo, and I firmly agree with this (he had a short youtube video on this in the past month or so if you want to hear it from him).

4) You mention "ease of use" and that you feel a wired connection is easier. I would humbly disagree. With a wired connection you have to physically connect the phone, set optimal output volume levels on the phone to minimize distortion, the phone's internal DAC will resample the audio in almost all cases, and the DAC and headphone amp in phones probably costs less than a dollar (ie cheap low quality). A streamer will get you better results and in both situations you basically just have to hit the play button in the music app. But that's my two sense on the matter.

Some extra things. I own both the Wiim and the Bluesound Node (N130). Both are easy to use. The Node is better quality and has more output options if you decide to connect it to a DAC (now or later on). The DAC in the Node is also better, so that may be a consideration if you don't plan on getting an external DAC.

Behind all of this is, what is your budget? There are streamers for 2 figures (like the Wiim) and 5 figures, so the range is rather broad. Let us know the above info and I can give you some more narrowed advice.

Hope we can help, and again, welcome to CJO!

[AnotherJohnson]

After wrestling with some this stuff this past year, and reading your post, I am wondering if your Prima Luna CD player has a digital input to allow use of its DAC.

With admin’s coaching, I bought a Bluesound Node, and fed its digital output to my SACD player’s DAC via a digital coax cable. I had to turn off the clock trim feature of the Node to avoid occasional milli seconds moments when the DAC and streamer weren’t in sync. Otherwise on my LAN side it’s been trouble free.

Right now my dissatisfaction is with Comcast because there are problems on their side of the gateway over which I have no control. The longest period they’ve been trouble free since I’ve been paying attention has been five days.

Last night was one of those nights where the Comcast side was unreliable. I switched over to vinyl and was genuinely startled at how much better it sounded. I hadn’t been listening to records, preferring the lazy aspect of streaming, for most of the last week.

[Noventa98]

Hello admin and AnotherJohnson,

thank you very much indeed for your insight. I feel I can make some progress with you replies: I was getting lost with all the opinions on YouTube channels, articles and other forums.

I hope it is not a problem if I combine my replies in a single message.

Let me begin with the message sent by admin.

1) The first thing I would ask is what is the source of the music on their phone? Are the kids basically streaming music to their phone and then play via the 3.5 mm output jack or they specifically want to play music files that are stored on their phone. If it's streaming music, I would be looking at a streamer specifically.

Yes they are using their phone to stream mostly iTunes or Spotify tracks. I must say that I would also like to eventually access the FLAC files on my Synology NAS, add some other better quality streaming services and, why not, some radio stations (back in my time a radio was often seen as a welcome addition to a Hi-Fi system). So, yes I think we will need a streaming device.

2) If using a streaming as the source, what streaming service do they use? Different streamers support different services so that will narrow down the recommendations.

See above: iTunes and Spotify for the time being but maybe others later on and radio too.

3) What is the intent of adding these digital sources? Are you mostly looking for volume equalization or are you looking for top notch audio quality sound? If mostly volume equalization, a streamer's analog outs connected to the preamp will be fine. If your intent is the best audio quality on the market, then I would be looking at both a streamer and a DAC, with most of the budget going toward the DAC. Paul McGowan from PS Audio recommends that the DAC be the #1 priority in a DAC/Source combo, and I firmly agree with this (he had a short Youtube video on this in the past month or so if you want to hear it from him).

Thanks for pointing to Paul McGowans videos: I have watched a few of them and will continue doing so. I am definitely wary of the the additional strain on my system due to the need to pump up the volume when connected to a phone (I only suppose that this is not very healthy but maybe I am wrong). At the same time, I would like to make the best use of this opportunity to upgrade the system and enjoy a better quality than the one we can obtain from the phone's DACs. My nephews who often come to visit us are classical musician and very sensitive about the quality of sound coming out from the system. I believe that a good DAC would be something to consider as well. Again, I agree, a combo DAC streamer could be the best choice.

4) You mention "ease of use" and that you feel a wired connection is easier. I would humbly disagree. With a wired connection you have to physically connect the phone, set optimal output volume levels on the phone to minimize distortion, the phone's internal DAC will resample the audio in almost all cases, and the DAC and headphone amp in phones probably costs less than a dollar (ie cheap low quality). A streamer will get you better results and in both situations you basically just have to hit the play button in the music app. But that's my two sense on the matter.

I agree with the main concept of course. Sometimes we do have friends over and they occasionally attach their phones to the already available cables to play some tunes (increasing the volume on both the phone and the preamp). The quality is of course not on par with the system, but it is bearable. They will not have the app of the streamer installed on their phones. They could use bluetooth but that would actually use the internal cheap DAC of the phone. My idea is to give them the possibility of plugging in the phone with the wire output, bypassing the internal DAC and using a better one either in a streamer or in a streamer/DAC combo.

Some extra things. I own both the Wiim and the Bluesound Node (N130). Both are easy to use. The Node is better quality and has more output options if you decide to connect it to a DAC (now or later on). The DAC in the Node is also better, so that may be a consideration if you don't plan on getting an external DAC.

I believe that the Node could be more interesting in case I were to choose an additional DAC which can be removed from the chain (like a Mojo2).

Behind all of this is, what is your budget? There are streamers for 2 figures (like the Wiim) and 5 figures, so the range is rather broad. Let us know the above info and I can give you some more narrowed advice.

Good point. I thought of a budget of 600/1000 euros for a single device or a combo. I am willing to spend a little more if the quality improvement is such that it is worth going the extra mile. I was considering a combo of the BlueSound Node 2021 (or the Wiim Pro) and the Mojo 2. The two would cost me about 1300 euros in all (plus cables, etc.). But I am not sure that this configuration would actually work well with my system.

Answering now AnotherJohnson

After wrestling with some this stuff this past year, and reading your post, I am wondering if your Prima Luna CD player has a digital input to allow use of its DAC.With admin’s coaching, I bought a Bluesound Node, and fed its digital output to my SACD player’s DAC via a digital coax cable. I had to turn off the clock trim feature of the Node to avoid occasional milli seconds moments when the DAC and streamer weren’t in sync. Otherwise on my LAN side it’s been trouble free.

Unfortunately no, I just checked and there are only a coaxial and an optical input.

Right now my dissatisfaction is with Comcast because there are problems on their side of the gateway over which I have no control. The longest period they’ve been trouble free since I’ve been paying attention has been five days.

OMG, still troubles with Comcast? I know about these very well. Between 1999 and 2008 we were living in NJ and it was a real pain. I never had such a bad Internet connectivity service.

I am concerned also with the compatibility of the various devices with the CJ preamp and amp combo and the best way to connect them (what RCA inputs, what voltage levels to feed the preamp, etc.). I guess that a streamer would be less of a problem but a DAC could be a little more complex especially of it is a portable USB DAC. The portability is not a must but would be appreciate. Also, I consider that a streaming device could be used to stream to other audio devices in our home, which could also be convenient.

Hope my answers clarify a little better my current needs and the research. I appreciate any further advice you could give on the matter.

Warm best,
Tony

[admin]

So with that budget and your requirements I would make two recommendations, depending on how you want to go with separates or an "all in one solution."

1) Get a Bluesound Node and just use the analog outputs going into the preamp. You should not have a volume problem. You will have access to all the above mentioned streaming services, including internet radio. BTW, with the Node it also has RCA analog inputs so you can still keep a 3.5mm jack to RCA cable in those rare instances when a visitor comes by and they want to directly connect into the system.

2) Get a Wiim(or Wiim Pro) and put the rest of the budget into an external DAC.

------------------

I used have Comcast for a time but ultimately cancelled them as I got tired of them increasing the prices, and then I had to call and "bargain" it down to some more reasonable amount, then repeat the process a year later (meanwhile always increasing to some degree). We switched to Consolidated Communications (the other option in town) and haven't had any major issues. It's been the same price ($50 for 250 mpbs service). They recently had a new ISP start in our area called Fidium they offer 50mbps/250mpbs/1Gbps for $35/60/70, which is not too bad. If our current ISP starts giving us problems I will probably try them.

[AnotherJohnson]

An idea you’ve probably already considered:

Why not put together a “kids’ system” and take the risk of them blowing up speakers or shorting amps out of your life? I’ve seen both ruination of speakers and amps accomplished by impatient under focused kids. Not at my house, but at other houses. My kids are in their 40’s.

You can buy inexpensive docking oriented small systems that are perfect for phones as sources. Think of the initial cost as insurance against future main system repairs.

[Noventa98]

Thank you for your feedback, very useful indeed.

The Bluesound has an analog in/out 3.5 port, I guess this is where we can plug in a cable for occasional listening wired from a smartphone. The signal would be processed by the internal DAC of the phone, not by the Bluesound DAC, correct? To improve the quality of the sound I could add a portable DAC in between and send this to the optical port on the Bluesound?

I may go for the option 1 on and depending on how our listening habits evolve decide later to eventually add a DAC to improve the sound delivered to the preamplifier. At that moment I could envisage spending a little more.

I was also considering another network streamer, Atoll MS 120, which may have a better DAC but costs 500 bucks more.
https://www.atoll-electronique.com/en/p ... ers/ms120/

Best,
Tony

[admin]

The bluesound node has an analog 3.5 mm jack input.

The practical way this would work is that the phone's DAC would process the audio file, then push it out analog via 3.5mm jack, then another analog to digital conversion in the node, and then another digital to analog conversion prior to the preamp.

If you are looking for optimal quality, obviously this is not ideal. But for casual listening for the non-audiophile it is a practical solution.

Let's be real honest here. If you are looking for the best possibly quality, you are not going to be using the phone as a source (only as a controller app) as there is going to be re-encoding happening there before any signal is output no matter what you do (this is true for both android and iOS). Likewise, there won't be any bluetooth connections as those don't support lossless CD quality audio (not to mention higher resolution files).

The Atoll looks interesting. My only word of caution is their control app. It has 2.5 star rating on the google play store. Looks like a lot of people have issues with it. In comparison the two most popular streaming solutions BluOS controller app is rated 4.4 and HEOS 3.8. Wiim also has equally low rating of 2.4. Remember, most of your time interacting with these devices is going to be through the controller app. Also, their support for streaming services is limited. This is not to say it's a bad device, just something to be aware of.

[Noventa98]

An idea you’ve probably already considered:

Why not put together a “kids’ system” and take the risk of them blowing up speakers or shorting amps out of your life? I’ve seen both ruination of speakers and amps accomplished by impatient under focused kids. Not at my house, but at other houses. My kids are in their 40’s.

You can buy inexpensive docking oriented small systems that are perfect for phones as sources. Think of the initial cost as insurance against future main system repairs.

Yes! It is indeed something I am considering. I may let them use another less expensive Hi-Fi and spare mine. Nevertheless, it would be nice to have access to a wider choice of music through a streamer and eventually improve the sound.

[AnotherJohnson]

I can vouch for admin’s recommendation of the Node. The first one was a dud, but it was replaced quickly by yhe vendor. The second one has been very good, especially for its price point. But I don’t know how its DAC stacks up because I’m using an external DAC.

[admin]

I can vouch for admin’s recommendation of the Node. The first one was a dud, but it was replaced quickly by yhe vendor. The second one has been very good, especially for its price point. But I don’t know how its DAC stacks up because I’m using an external DAC.

Not great. Initially I did some short listening sessions with the analog outs on the wiim and node just for fun. First, I don't think it's a particular good DAC and I also don't like 3.5mm to RCA connectors (compared to RCA to RCA). The Node DAC is better. As good as a PS Audio Directstream or my Holo Audio May,..? No. Again, I think there is an expected performance improvement that holds true when you move from a DAC in the 2 figure (wiim), 3 figure (node), and 4 figure price points.

[Noventa98]

I agree, the Atoll MS120 looks nice but the app seems not so well done.

I think I'll take the plunge for the Node. Even if it looks a little messy inside the box (as shown in this video: https://youtu.be/t5J-EJL0D9U?t=908). And if our the listening habits change I may the add a DAC later on. I would then consider a Atoll Signature HD120 (800€) or a Denafrips Ares II (1k). Other suggestions at around 1k - 1.5k bucks that would fit better?.

I'll post my impressions about the BlueSound Node once I have set it up properly and listened to it for a while.
Have a great day.
Tony

[admin]

Very good. Let us know what you think of the node. I have heard good things about denafrips. I also recommend looking at the Schiit line of DACs. They have a number of them at different price points.

[Noventa98]

Just out of curiosity:

The practical way this would work is that the phone's DAC would process the audio file, then push it out analog via 3.5mm jack, then another analog to digital conversion in the node, and then another digital to analog conversion prior to the preamp.
If you are looking for optimal quality, obviously this is not ideal. But for casual listening for the non-audiophile it is a practical solution.

I get the point that phones as a source in whatever fashion or configuration cannot compete with other devices. However, I wonder whether a portable DAC (like the Mojo2 or Mojo1) would not improve significantly the quality of the signal from the smartphones and bypass their internal DAC? If yes, would it be better placed before the streamer/DAC or directly to the preamp?

[admin]

If the audio could bypass the phones internal DAC, then yes (with the presumption that the external DAC is better than the DAC in the streamer and that you don't plan to buy a streamer and a DAC). You would need a OTG to USB cable.

Keep in mind there will be limitations. And some streaming services still may not be compatible. You could still have limitations on 24b/192khz hi rez files. You may also need to use special audio playing software on the phone to take advantage of the higher res formats.

In other words, if you plan to go the Phone to DAC via OTG cable, there are a lot of variables you need to account for before it will work correctly. So you have to pick your player, streaming service, otg cable, and DAC to be compatible. If a friend comes over and just plugs there phone in, don't expect it to work and produce lossless audio. Also, you will need a different cable for android and iphones. Also, some streaming service's apps don't support the output regardless. For example, you will not be able to get 24b/192khz from android on Amazon Music Unlimited, OTG cable or not. You can with a limited selection of streamers.

The advantage of the streamer is that you set it up once, and then it just works. But how you want to go is of course up to you.

[AnotherJohnson]

You’re in France. Get them a Cabasse wireless … at the lower end of their line of products, they’ve got “for the kids” written all over them.

Or the Bluesound all in one wireless speaker which is even less costly, at least here in the US.

[admin]

You’re in France. Get them a Cabasse wireless … at the lower end of their line of products, they’ve got “for the kids” written all over them.

Or the Bluesound all in one wireless speaker which is even less costly, at least here in the US.

If it's a "kid system", then I like the all in one solution as AJ suggests. They can connect their phones to the Bluesound via bluetooth. No wires needed. The Powernode and Powernode Edge are both good choices. Just pair them with some speakers and you are done.

[Noventa98]

Thanks, that adding a portable DAC in the mix sounds like an extremely complicated endeavour. I think I' ll keep it simple for the time being: just get the Node and attach a 3,5mm audio cable for the occasional visitor. Later I'll review the DAC options: either a Chord Mojo2 (or something lower priced) to improve the signal from smartphones running parallel to the streamer (or in another configuration) or a fully-fledged DAC to be included in the chain between the streamer and the preamp.

Yep, wireless Cabasse could be an option or some other device I can get second hand on Leboncoin (the French Craglist). I am wondering if I should not purchase a small HiFi unit or connected loudspeaker to hook up wireless via Wi-Fi to the streamer.

[Noventa98]

If it's a "kid system", then I like the all in one solution as AJ suggests. They can connect their phones to the Bluesound via bluetooth. No wires needed. The Powernode and Powernode Edge are both good choices. Just pair them with some speakers and you are done.

The Node would not serve only a "kid system", as I expect to use it for radio and other sources in my chain as well. What would be the advantage of one of these over the simple Node if we consider that the other speakers will not be necessarily close by and so not reachable with Bluetooth?

[admin]

The advantage of the powernode is that it's basically a streamer, preamp, and amp all in one package. This would be a good option for a 2nd inexpensive system. Not a substitute for your current gear. If wanting to add streaming to the current system, you would want the regular node (N130).