Conrad Johnson Premier 140 Vs Conrad Johnson Premier twelve

[gregorioo]

I am asking preventively, because it may actually turn out that the amplifier will sound beautiful and there is no point in bothering about it....

I’m gonna go with this idea … ,

You convinced me, but knowledge is never too much

[gregorioo]

The amplifier after the first tests.
It sounds decent, but it lacks the unsurpassed depth and delicacy that Line Magnetic has.
CJ plays brighter more forward. Line Magnetic has more of that 3D magic
I'm curious if I can get close to the best of the LM508IA combined with the power of the CJ, which I missed in the Line Magnetic.
Perhaps replacing the lamps with other ones could do something.
The tubes I have currently installed are 6550 TS Tungsol.
Shouldn't they be 6550C?
Another thing I don't understand, because it is not mentioned in the manual, is the triode switch - UL.

Triode and UL photo

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Does this work with all tubes and why have I not found any information about it anywhere - is it a factory switchable option?
Could the use of EL34 - tubes sweeten the sound a bit and will they match this amplifier?

[Joe Appierto]

I have never seen a Premier 140 with a Triode/Ultralinear switch. Perhaps some other members of our community have.

As for using other tubes: the Premier 140 was originally introduced using SED =C= 6550C that is true but you can use virtually any 6550/KT88/KT90/KT120 type tube. EL34 type tubes shouldn't be used but then I never saw a 140 with a triode switch so I'm not sure what to say. In a stock 140 an EL34 would be a no-no.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think both the Premier 11 and 12 had a triode switch.

I have heard of a case where an owner may have had one added to his Premier 140 as a modification, possibly by someone like Bill Thalmann.

Maybe that’s the one you have.

FWIW, Triode is NOT Ultra Linear (UL).

[gregorioo]

Maybe I have one

I haven't compared the differences in sound between the UL and the triode in detail, but at first glance they don't differ significantly - at least not from the first second as when switching amplifiers.

I would like to check how the amplifier will sound on the EL34, especially that these are quite cheap tubes and this is the thing that bothers me the most.

This Triode/UL switch, which I haven't seen on other Cj 140s, suggests that maybe there is such a possibility

The amplifier drives the ribbon part from 120Hz and 70W should be enough for me. for 6550 in triode mode the power is enough

[Truth71]

I would not use EL34 tubes in this amplifier

[AnotherJohnson]

It sounds decent, but it lacks the unsurpassed depth and delicacy that Line Magnetic has.
CJ plays brighter more forward. Line Magnetic has more of that 3D magic

Trying to think of a nice way to put this.

You are basically saying that the Chinese built integrated tube amp is not only better than your P140, but in fact the Chinese amp is unsurpassed in its depth, delicacy , and magic.

If I understand this correctly, then at least one of the following must be in play.

- Your P140 has been modified right out of its sound signature. We know it’s been modified by the triode switch. What else did they do?

- You have serendipitously achieved heretofore unknown synergy with the 508ia, speakers, and cables. Perhaps. Your ears, your system.

With a modified P140, you’re on your own regarding “ How does this tube sound, or what about that tube?” No one else can know because your P140 is unique.

[AnotherJohnson]

How close are your gains? To horizontally biamp effectively you need to do some close gain matching or you screw up the intended voice of the speakers.

Of course it “works” without gain matching, but if it were to sound good, it would be due to more serendipity.

[gregorioo]

As for the sound of the Chinese amplifier, matching the amplifiers to each other - that's not what I asked
I asked about the possibility of improving the sound in the Premier 140 and replacing the tubes with EL 34 - nothing more, but as a colleague wrote above, it is unlikely to be done in a simple way.
I will try to find out what the modification on the Triode was made for.

[gregorioo]

I also thought to start by replacing the input tubes
6922
and
6N30
However, I am not sure what would be the most suitable, because I will not find the identical original one - there are substitutes on the market
Can you help me choose the right one?

[Truth71]

Are you looking for current production 6922 and 6N30 tubes or "NOS" tubes?
Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio has history of being an honest and helpful cealer, his inventory at present seems to be devoted to current production tubes. In that arena, it's pretty much Elctroharmonix and Gold Lion. Of the two, I'd go for the Gold Lion.
My personal edperience with NOS tubes has been with Brent Jesse. Also honest and helpful and at present seems to well stocked with numerous ( but prepare to pay $$$) NOS tubes.
Also...DON'T TRY EL34's in this amp unlessyou obtain circuit diagrams that indicate it has been expressly modified to run that specific tube type. The original circuits WILL fry if you try EL34's in them.

[gregorioo]

I ordered:
6H30Pi-EW Sovtek -
E88CC Premium Audio 6922 S4A Gold
ECC88 Tesla NOS -
For now, I don't want to invest a lot of money in NOS tubes without knowing if it will solve the problem.
I also do not think that replacing it with KT88 or other 6550 can give such audible effects and change the face of the amplifier.
To be clear - I'm not saying that this amplifier sounds bad.
Compared to all the transistors I had - it ranks first, but as I've heard what sounds better for me - it's hard to go back a level lower, especially since I want to go higher.
For now, I want to check if these lamps are not worn out.
Maybe I demand too much from an amplifier that works on 8 tubes.
My experienced colleague warned me that it would be hard for me to beat the SET amplifier, especially in such a budget, but I will try solutions.

The CJ service confirmed that the change to EL34 is possible, however, it requires modification of the bias power supply and the service from tube amplifiers would certainly handle it as a friend wrote above - I will not force them there myself.

I would love to try the EL34, and probably mostly because of satisfying my curiosity.

[roberto]

Hola gregorioo,

I am a very happy user of the KT-120 output tubes, they come with the Classic One Twenty SE CJ power amp. I had used 6550s (C), KT-90s, KT88s, and of course had the EL-34/6CA7s, 6L6s with other brands of tube amps like Sonic Frontiers, Carver, Audio Research, Cary Audio, Jolida, Golden Tube etc..

The bass control and the clean sound of the KT-120s is pleasing me since the first time that I used them. This KT-120 is a direct replacement of the 6550 and you don't have to do any modifications. Conrad Johnson is using it in the new models of power amps. Some members might disagree with me, and of course I respect that, but I asure you that the KT-120 have brought a new step forward with a bass control and open transparent wide stage with marvellous highs. The harmonic texture and the size of the musical instruments is granted too. Voices are projected to the space with quality.

Just given to them a try...you might like KT120s as I do.

Happy listening!

[Joe Appierto]

Roberto's assessment of the KT120 tubes is universal and work very nicely in the Premier 140. When I had the Pr. 140 I tried them and they sounded quite nice. His recommendation is a good one.

[gregorioo]

I would try with Kt120 tubes, but again, it's quite expensive with no guarantee of success.
I'm afraid that changing the tubes will be just a subtle change on the border of perception. I'm not the type that hears differences in cables, but when something actually sounds different, I can hear it, not only me, but also every person who likes to listen to music.
In CJ I miss the space, the vocals are not so natural and engaging. After switching to LM, after a while you can hear a significant expansion of the image, the vocals become more tangible - the speakers disappear even more. After returning to CJ, the sound slightly returns between the speakers.
https://tomanek.net.pl/tomanek-audio-ro ... ar-21.html
Can replacing the tubes really make such a difference that the amplifier will actually jump to a higher level?
It is quite easy for me to compare amplifiers, because I have a switch installed and switching between one is practically inaudible.

[gregorioo]

Hola gregorioo,

I am a very happy user of the KT-120 output tubes, they come with the Classic One Twenty SE CJ power amp. I had used 6550s (C), KT-90s, KT88s, and of course had the EL-34/6CA7s, 6L6s with other brands of tube amps like Sonic Frontiers, Carver, Audio Research, Cary Audio, Jolida, Golden Tube etc..

The bass control and the clean sound of the KT-120s is pleasing me since the first time that I used them. This KT-120 is a direct replacement of the 6550 and you don't have to do any modifications. Conrad Johnson is using it in the new models of power amps. Some members might disagree with me, and of course I respect that, but I asure you that the KT-120 have brought a new step forward with a bass control and open transparent wide stage with marvellous highs. The harmonic texture and the size of the musical instruments is granted too. Voices are projected to the space with quality.

Just given to them a try...you might like KT120s as I do.

Happy listening!

Hola Roberto
The description shows that what appeared in you after changing the tubes to the KT120 may be what I am missing - only if these changes are not at the level of perception and perhaps I am demanding too much from the amplifier, which has many tubes in relation to the SET with one lamp...
In my case, the amplifier only drives the ribbon speakers, the SS amplifier is responsible for the bass section. The cut-off point is 120Hz.
My friend will send me his KT88 after Sunday and I will be able to assess whether I will be able to hear any differences in sound at all.
Today I will test the input lamps because the package is already delivered.
I also have the opportunity to try the CAT JL2 Mk2 and maybe it will actually be better to go in this direction, because maybe the CJ PREM 140 really has to sound like that and this is its nature.

[roberto]

Gregorio,

When you say that you are driving your speakers with two amplifiers, one SS for the bass section, and your frequency cut is 120Hz, you still have your SS working at -12dB at 240Hz, and 480Hz at -24dB affecting the mid range too. I suggest to you to use your tube amp with the KT-120s full range...and have a listening. All depends too of your adjustment and the way that you are accustomed to listen to the music.

I do listen a lot of unplugged music and in small places events. Here you can hear the harmonic content of each musical instrument and its naturalness. Listen to a double bass and the way that you get its intensity. A piano, a violin, a guitar, a voice etc...you will be amazed how beautiful this is, because you will get the real nuances of the musical instruments and voices. This is the way that I do like to listen the music.

Also in my system, there is no need to play the music too loud, so I don't get any ear fatigue. I can listen many continuous time without any stress or fatigue. Try it out, you might like it as I do...

Happy listening!

[roberto]

I forgot to mention that the KT-120 will increase your wattage, using the bias adjustment provided in your power amp for each tube, also, the bass control is fantastic, and I am sure that you won't need to bi-amp, having a naturalness of CJ signature.

The Premier 140 is a step forward of the Premier 12. There is a new path in the circuit design, making it to be more enjoyable, and having of course, the Conrad Johnson signature sound quality.

When you listen to the music, let some time for your ears to adapt them to your new sound quality. Don't spect to have the same resonances in the bass range...just enjoy how good is your new sound presentation.

Happy listening!

[admin]

Gregorioo,

If you really want to see what the full potential of the Premier 140 is going to be, I would use it alone to drive the speakers as roberto is suggesting. I'm not sure of what the advantage is of biamping your system unless you really feel you don't have enough power and your experiencing clipping. The 140 should have plenty of power by itself to take care of your needs. Also, mixing two such unequal amps may cause the sound to not be as cohesive as being driven by one amp. I feel that if going the biamp route, the best thing is to have a pair of the same amps driving the high and low end and not mixing amps that have very different outputs and audio signatures. But that's just my experience and others may disagree.

The KT120's are mighty fine tubes (which admittedly also cost a lot). I have 16 of them driving my ART amps. Whether that upgrade cost is worth your money, I can not say. Each system is unique so the ultimate performance results are hard to predict.

[gregorioo]

From the beginning
Source: Rose 150
Preamplifier: Cayin SC-10
To equalize the levels between the LM508ia and the CJ 140 - the LM 508ia was temporarily connected to the Line in input (as an integrated amplifier, so that the potentiometer works) which allowed me to fine-tune the volume level between the CJ and LM508ia
As for the bass section in the Infinity IRS Gamma - it must work in bi-amping - The set is equipped with a servo system. The bass speaker has an electromagnet installed that measures the deflection of the diaphragm - if it is too large, it sends a signal to the servo, and the servo to the power amplifier, compensating for excessive deflection - Bass with the use of the servo is incomparably better - much faster, controlled and largely free of hum. The difference is huge. From what I've seen, the latest Genesis loudspeakers also use such a modernized layout.
With the Serv, the bass goes down even below 20Hz -
Bi amp for these speakers is a must - Infinity IRS gamma without servo is nothing else than Infinity IRS delta.
I do not want to discover America again, but these loudspeakers are about 30 years old - a lot of audiophiles have already mangled them and the conclusion was that the upper part sounds best with tubes, and the lower part with a good, strong SS - I have not come across an opinion that bass section, somewhere someone once recommended a tube amplifier.
Also, my room is poorly proportioned and the bass goes through the DSP anyway. Without the processor it was very bad - some bands were too much boosted, so much so that listening to some tracks in which the bass was dominant in the boost range was tiring (3.8x6.5x2.6m). With the use of DSP, the bass is tolerable - it is not the peak of it should be, but I will not try to improve it at this point. Below is the link before and after the correction..

IMG-20221022-WA0000 (1).jpg (138.07 KiB) Viewed 3496 times

Today I replaced the input and driver tubes - CJ started to sound much better. The sound opened up a lot, the highs stopped attacking the ears - a direct blind comparison, which amplifier plays, whether it's LM or CJ, is not so obvious anymore.
The difference can be found on the vocals, where on the LM it is a bit more velvety, the LM reproduces the music a bit softer and more spatially, the speakers disappear more, but this is at the level of perception and can only be heard when switching amplifiers directly.
The most important thing is that CJ makes music that you want to listen to and that you can absorb.
I also have a power reserve, which is what I wanted, and I can listen to my favorite songs the way I like - sometimes quieter, sometimes louder. CJ stays with me for longer, and LM has already found a new owner.