dCS Ring DAC and related digital gear

[AnotherJohnson]

As anyone who has read my posts would know, I am undereducated in the digital/streaming domain.

This past week I was introduced to the dCS Rossini Apex and related products. I spent several hours in auditions with ARC, Wilson, and Transparent support.

I found it to sound as though it might define the state of the digital art.

I know a few people have mentioned that they’re using the dCS Vivaldi lineup.

Are there competitors for dCS? Or do they stand by themselves.

Afterthought … John Giolos (sp?), the current dCS VP of Sales, used to work for Wilson. He wrote The Wilson Way, which I have highly recommended.

I met him this past week too. They’ve explained the Ring DAC to me … but the sound was enough to make me wonder if an explanation were needed.

[admin]

Wow, the dCS equipment is top of the line with the price to match. I don't think you can really do better, but the question is, how much better is it than gear which is a fraction of the cost (if at all)?

I have to admit that I have never listened to their specific DAC, but my experience is that when you get into the 4 figures in DAC's, it's not really about better, but different. And that difference is going to come down to taste. Also, some of the features that these high end DACs offer are not necessarily wanted by all people. A good example is the dedicated oversampling unit in the dCS vivaldi series. On my Holo Audio DAC, it is actually preferable to turn off the oversampling (even though it has the capability).

As for their "Ring DAC" design, it appears to be a modification (and perhaps improvement) on ladder DAC designs used in other high end DAC's. Whether this actually sounds better to your ears or not, that's hard to say.

If you are really interested in going down the digital rabbit hole and considering a dCS unit, I would probably take a listen to something more moderately priced DACs that can be auditioned for relatively small amounts (like the PS Audio Directstream DAC or even a Schiit YGGDRASIL) and hear if you really find improvement that justifies the 5 figure price.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, DCS has become a true highend statement in all things digital. However, there are equally outstanding ones that I've come across, MSB, Metronome, Taiko Audio, Lampizator and Areis Ceret. These are all top level with top level price tags. Then comes the 2nd tier for example Esoteric, where they have dual mono DACs configured for each channel like monoblocks, and Meitner, which I used one of theirs back in the day. All top level stuff but the question is how far do you want to go?

The phenomenon with digital tech especially now... what I discovered is that the so called latest and greatest bought today is obsolete the moment you set it up at home! The very next day, week or month it's been already surpassed! So why bother.

They are advancing at such an alarming rate, it's not even funny. There are some 5 - 6 year old DCS digital gear that's just lying around with no takers... simply because these audiophiles who are truly passionate about their digital gear, only want the absolute best and the latest. So they keep updating more often that I change socks!

Just before I finalised on my Esoteric gear, I had the opportunity of having a Lampizator DAC. That particular DAC partnered with CJ tube amplification driving ML stats was just superb! I had a very very hard time returning the unit after a short home trial. However, my rationale of letting it go was based on just two things:

1. The Lampi Dac had tubes, so I really didn't want to add more tubes into a system which already has a truck load of tubes! If one's faulty then which one...bloody annoying.

2. How long until this model gets superseded... and it did! The very next month!

As Admin very rightly pointed out, if you want to go down the digital rabbit hole... get ready for a roller coaster ride, it never ends! I guess that's pretty much the same with any highend gear out there, they're all just so good and we're totally spoiled for choice! Sky's the limit!

As of now, regardless if I had the dual mono DACs from Esoteric or the 60grand Dac from Aries Ceret called the Cassandra (superb!!! Btw), whenever I plonk an LP on my humble Rega TT partnered with the TEA2SE, it gives me all the smiles required including all that bliss, so why bother.

It is a very intriguing subject if you really must try... and the DCS gear is tops without a doubt! The last time I heard a full DCS stack was the Puccini; transport, DAC, and clock were completely separate. Then that marvellous Puccini system has been surpassed now, and this was only three years ago.

All the best, and let us know how it goes.
Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

The unit that is readily available nearly everywhere for audition is the South Korean Rose 150B (priced similarly to the Hola May that has received much love here).

Is the rose very nice? I think so. Was the dCS Rossini better? I can’t say because of the system differences … far and away the BEST demo I’ve heard was the Rossini with the ARC, Wilson, Transparent gear.

I’ve heard the Rose with McIntosh, Wilson, and unknown wires. Also with Naim, Vandersteen, Nordost.

All of these seem very nice.

I am wondering aloud what might be achieved with the DACs I’ve already got on hand.

The Marantz ND8006, HEOS, Ruby SA-KI, Levinson 5101 …

I’ve run across an older model “one box” Rossini with built in clock and transport. It can’t handle SACDs, which I find odd … the first thing the dCS rep told me was that dCS had been in on the development of SACD from the beginning.

An impressive aspect of dCS is that they say they make all their own components and support them “forever”. A unit that is bought today will be upgradable as technology advances. I did meet the VP of sales (the fellow who wrote The Wilson Way), but I spent a lot of time with a young fellow named Emron. Emron was quite knowledgeable about details as though he may have been an engineer who was hired into technical sales.

[admin]

The unit that is readily available nearly everywhere for audition is the South Korean Rose 150B (priced similarly to the Hola May that has received much love here).

Is the rose very nice? I think so. Was the dCS Rossini better? I can’t say because of the system differences … far and away the BEST demo I’ve heard was the Rossini with the ARC, Wilson, Transparent gear.

I’ve heard the Rose with McIntosh, Wilson, and unknown wires. Also with Naim, Vandersteen, Nordost.

All of these seem very nice.

The Rose is really a unique unit as I don't think of it as "just a DAC" but a streamer with a bunch of other built in functions. I mean, the thing output 4K video to your TV!

I am wondering aloud what might be achieved with the DACs I’ve already got on hand.

The Marantz ND8006, HEOS, Ruby SA-KI, Levinson 5101 …

That's always the end question. The only thing I can say is that when looking at the design of integrated components, the DAC may not be the focus. So even though the unit is well made, high quality, etc... that budget has to be spread to cover all it's functions. So how much time/effort/money was spent specifically on the DAC? With a dedicated DAC, you know that the focus and resources devoted to the development were put into that single function. That doesn't mean that a stand alone DAC will always sound better by any means. Just something to consider.

An impressive aspect of dCS is that they say they make all their own components and support them “forever”. A unit that is bought today will be upgradable as technology advances. I did meet the VP of sales (the fellow who wrote The Wilson Way), but I spent a lot of time with a young fellow named Emron. Emron was quite knowledgeable about details as though he may have been an engineer who was hired into technical sales.

I don't think anybody would question the quality and commitment of dCS. They are at the pinnacle of digital playback. The question is can you get similar performance at a potentially lower price point? That's probably a question only your ear can decide.

[Big Dog RJ]

If I were to choose between top end DACs and other digital gear, leaving price aside, just based on performance alone, this would be my list in order of ranking:
1. Aries Ceret Kassandra DAC
2. DCS Vivaldi
3. Lampizator Pacific or Atlantic

Have heard all of these in one form or the other in some really top flight systems. The Aries Ceret gear is built without compromise, hence the exhorbitant spend... every detail from inner components to chassis to top cover including types of screws used to house metal work, is just a remarkable design of cost no object. Only a handful are made with such quality.

Just on a listening experience to a full array of Aries Ceret gear partnered with their matching horn type speakers was something else! One of those systems was featured in some show with a price tag of $1mil, talk about insane!

Also got the chance to audition the Kassandra DAC in that CJ ART300 system driving the Alsyvox ribbons and the CLX's. The Kassandra has adjustable gain and bias settings, and the owner's manual is a full hard book cover, not some flimsy black & white photo copy manual. This is one company that takes the highend to a whole other level.

I would think that Dartzeel, CH Precision and Solution gear would be the ultra-high-end but Aries Ceret takes it even further. If any of you get the slightest chance to audition this type of gear, whether it's their DACs, preamps or their Ianus monoblocks limited edition, matched with their reference series horn speakers out there, this will be the ultimate reference in any system. They're simply unbelievable!

As of now at this stage, I'm extremely pleased with my current humble rig, and that's all within serious budget. So no overspending at this end. $1mil ...No thanks!

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Hilarious sales pitch for the Rose 150B was emailed to me by a fellow who wanted to sell one to me today.

“It's really highly adequate.”



Just what I want.

I am ready to pronounce that compared to the dCS I heard last week, The Rose may actually be less than highly adequate.

[admin]

Hilarious sales pitch for the Rose 150B was emailed to me by a fellow who wanted to sell one to me today.

“It's really highly adequate.”

What a sales pitch,... sign me up!

In all fairness, the 150B does a lot of "other stuff", so I think the budget on the unit had only minimal investment in sound quality. The development cost for that display and video output is probably substantial.

[AnotherJohnson]

Hilarious sales pitch for the Rose 150B was emailed to me by a fellow who wanted to sell one to me today.

“It's really highly adequate.”

What a sales pitch,... sign me up!

In all fairness, the 150B does a lot of "other stuff", so I think the budget on the unit had only minimal investment in sound quality. The development cost for that display and video output is probably substantial.

I have heard a pretty good demo of the Rose 150B. It was in a well set up room and system with Vandersteens, driven by upper level NAIM electronics and Nordost wires. It sounds good and it was fun to play with.

If I were to buy one, I would buy it from my local dealer out of loyalty and pricing.

I liked the dCS Rossini interface better.

And the dCS Rossini sound was closer to what Thomas O’KEEFE coaxed out of my LP12. But in the right set up, the Rose 150B sounds like good value. Just not at the level of the order(s) of magnitude more costly dCS line.

[admin]

Maybe I'm being to harsh and admittedly I've never listened to the 150B. Just reading the specs and looking at the manufacturer's website it looks to be more of a "do it all" item. The internals don't look very impressive (but of course this could be misleading). No fancy ladder dac, huge power supply, etc... that other DACs in that price range are starting to offer.

I think the front display is really nice however. Perhaps the best I've seen on any similar unit. If you have a TV connected to your setup and you want to display song information while playing (or video for that matter) then there are very few choices that offer that capability. I can see the Rose in a "living room setup" where video output, ease of control, etc... is a big draw.

[AnotherJohnson]

It does not appear to be selling well. I think potential buyers are looking at the specs, and maybe hearing it in bad demos.

I would not even consider it based on the demo yesterday (with over $400k of supporting equipment from Wilson and McIntosh).

[admin]

I'm not surprised that it is not selling well. It's not that there is anything wrong with the 150B quality, but rather that it does so much that it doesn't fit into high end systems (which typically don't have video displays) and is too expensive for budget systems. I can see hesitancy of buying a video device when you don't have a video component in your system.

[AnotherJohnson]

I'm not surprised that it is not selling well. It's not that there is anything wrong with the 150B quality, but rather that it does so much that it doesn't fit into high end systems (which typically don't have video displays) and is too expensive for budget systems. I can see hesitancy of buying a video device when you don't have a video component in your system.

I think that’s a good insight.

Too expensive for mid fi. Too mid fi for high end. Jack of all trades. Master of none.

The video aspect is a mental block for me too. I don’t need it, so why pay for it. It rips CDs too supposedly. Something else I don’t need.

Streaming is a mixed bag for me. Video or audio. I am reluctant to support any of the major players.

At $699, it’s an easy buy. At $4995, not so much.

[admin]

My thoughts exactly. As you mentioned, it can rip CD's, but now you need an external drive to be attached, and storage would need to be external as well. You can get those same functions in a streamer with something like a Bluesound Vault (which includes the CD drive and a 2 TB hard drive) for a quarter of the price. Again, what is unique about the Rose is the video output (and the beautiful front display), but I just don't see a lot of high end setups using video output.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’m assuming that owners of the Holo Audio MAY KTE would still recommend it heartily.

[admin]

I’m assuming that owners of the Holo Audio MAY KTE would still recommend it heartily.

I'm certainly biased, but yes. But I think the Holo Audio May is different than some of these other products as it is a complete stand alone DAC. Nothing more nothing less. The capabilities of something like the 150B/Vault is rather different and way beyond a simple DAC.

dCS has it's stand alone DAC but they take it to the next level with some of gear. For example if you want their "premium line", you will be buying the DAC, upsampler, and clock in separate packages. I'm not sure how much that setup costs but I'm sure it's an order of magnitude higher than even most high end DACs like Holo Audio/PS Audio/Rose/Etc....

[AnotherJohnson]

It is easy to drop $100k on dCS.

[AnotherJohnson]

Interesting assertion by staff at The Music Room regarding HiFi Rose 150B. He claims (in the video) that after break in there is a dramatic improvement in the sound.

https://tmraudio.com/blog/video-surpris ... se-rs150b/

[admin]

It certainly appears to be a quality unit. But again, falls into that "jack of all trades, master of none" category that will only appeal to few. I will say that the presentation with that full front display is very impressive. Certainly an eye catcher.

[AnotherJohnson]

I missed these reviews of HiFi Rose 150B.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articl ... aming-dac/

https://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2022/06/ ... dern-hifi/