AudioQuest, 72 V DBS, rambles

[AnotherJohnson]

AJ, the following is purely anecdotal based on my own experience with aftermarket fuses over about 20 years plus some other anecdotal reports on different forums. So take it for what it's worth.

I've found that aftermarket fuses tend to blow more easily than the stock OEM fuses the equipment comes with.

The rationale I've seen is that the aftermarket fuses are built to tighter tolerances and therefore will blow in an over-current situation before a generic fuse. A more cynical person might say that it is in the aftermarket manufacturers' best interest to produce fuses that blow more easily.

Either way, just my 2¢.

That is good information. If I were making aftermarket fuses for expensive gear, I would want to do it that way to avoid liability for damage related to blowing too late. Thanks!

[AnotherJohnson]

As an aside, the P12 has been a good replacement for the Niagara 1200 in the HT system … but neither of them seem like a sonic or video upgrade per se. Both just seem to offer their protection rather than more of anything in that application. The amp/preamp is just part of the entry level AVR. The speakers are Sonus Faber Liuto monitors and center channel, with PSB Alpha AVs as the back channels.

Wires are run of the mill wires. It makes me wonder if the system had to evolve to the point where the regenerator could actually show its stuff.

FWIW, Upscale Audio is advertising the Niagara 1200 WITH an AQ aftermarket power cord for only $995 as a combo deal this week. Maybe AQ is clearing out inventory in anticipation of a new model.

[Joe Appierto]

FWIW, Upscale Audio is advertising the Niagara 1200 WITH an AQ aftermarket power cord for only $995 as a combo deal this week. Maybe AQ is clearing out inventory in anticipation of a new model.

I saw the same offer just not sure whether it was Upscale or The Cable Company. Whichever, looks like a good one with the Niagara 1200 positively reviewed in the past but more importantly your positive reaction.

My latest and only experiments have been with Chinese knock-offs of Nordost power cords that I'm certain sound nothing like the originals. The weird thing is they don't sound that bad, actually pretty good.

[AnotherJohnson]

My latest and only experiments have been with Chinese knock-offs of Nordost power cords that I'm certain sound nothing like the originals. The weird thing is they don't sound that bad, actually pretty good.

I’m not surprised. The effects of a lot of these tweaks are system dependent. I’ll bet it sounds great!

[AnotherJohnson]

I came across a 2 meter Nordost Frey 2 power cord for a fair price the other day, and I stuck it between the P20 and the Ref Phono 3 phono preamp. Frey 2 is considered by Nordost as above entry level, but not really high end. The 2 meter Frey 2 retails for about $2400.

I was unsure about what I should expect, but was pleased when I heard the sort of improvement I’ve noticed with the Hurricanes. Hurricane and Frey 2 pricing are similar. Hurricanes and Frey 2s are mid line kind of products for AQ and NO.

This power cord stuff is another mystery, that’s for sure.

[admin]

I've recently put the Audioquest Rocket 88 speaker cables in my system and so far I live what I hear. Definitely an upgrade from my previous Signal Cable Ultra cables. I was doubtful that this 72V DBS thing had anything to it, but as usual,... I was proven wrong. I'm going to write a more thorough review once I get a little more time on them.

[AnotherJohnson]

I've recently put the Audioquest Rocket 88 speaker cables in my system and so far I live what I hear. Definitely an upgrade from my previous Signal Cable Ultra cables. I was doubtful that this 72V DBS thing had anything to it, but as usual,... I was proven wrong. I'm going to write a more thorough review once I get a little more time on them.

I’m glad that they were an upgrade. They were for me too.

[AnotherJohnson]

More powe cord and interconnect follies underway.

I picked up a pair of two meter Transparent MM2 power cords. These are the best (supposedly) of the last generation of Transparent’s development. They may come in handy as I reconfigure my system to accept the REF 250 SEs.

I was “loaned” a two meter pair of balanced Transparent Ultra interconnects. They may also find a home in the reconfigured system too.

[AnotherJohnson]

A lot has transpired since my last post in this thread.

I’m still sold on 72 V DBS as a wire upgrade.

On speaker cables I’ve gone from my tried and true home made “high end” cables to AQ Rocket 44s, to Rocket 88s, to William Tell Zeros, to Thunderbird Zeros, the last three with 72 V DBS.

You can see AND HEAR the differences as you progress through these products. Are the sonic differences worth the literally factor of 200 x price difference? I dunno … I think it’s a personal decision and affected by your other gear, the room, your ears, and you commitment to the “Quest.”

I’ve roosted on AQ Thunderbirds for interconnects and speaker cables, with Hurricanes for Power cords.

These work extremely well in my ARC/Wilson based system.

I would only go back to stock power cords, McKenzie interconnects, and home made speaker cables if I had to. You can’t unhear a new reference.

[admin]

I've been very happy with the Rocket 88's 72V DBS system. I hate to admit it as I was hoping it was just snake oil.

there are always bigger, better, and more expensive upgrades to be had. The question is where do we draw the line of cost vs performance?

[AnotherJohnson]

I've been very happy with the Rocket 88's 72V DBS system. I hate to admit it as I was hoping it was just snake oil.

there are always bigger, better, and more expensive upgrades to be had. The question is where do we draw the line of cost vs performance?

I’ve reached my limit. I don’t want to hear the Dragons.

[AnotherJohnson]

Maybe I do want to hear the Dragons.

The Thunderbirds are the entry level to the Mythical Creatures product line. There’s no doubt it takes it up another notch. Just as with the William Tells, they are getting nicer and nicer as they are used. Both the William Tells and the Thunderbirds were bought second hand so probably “broken in.” But the 72 V DBS is a capacitive issue, and caps change in both use and disuse.

I’ve had a ball this evening listening to new CD and SACD references. As great as streaming is, what ear tingling joy accompanies the return to hard media.

Also, the Sabrinas are killing it. Instead of thinking of them as overpriced at $17995, I’m convinced they’re grossly underpriced at Paragon’s NOS selling price of under $12k.

If anyone is looking for great speakers in the sub $12k range, give Richard Marcus a call. The Sabrinas punch way above their weight. I hope the Sasha DAWs are not disappointing.

[admin]

I’ve reached my limit. I don’t want to hear the Dragons.

7 hour later....

Maybe I do want to hear the Dragons.

Ah, the true audiophile!


Seriously, if you have the funds it may be worthwhile taking the cabling to the "next level" with the new Sasha DAWs. It seems like you've felt that the upgrades in the cabling have been worth it. No reason to believe that with an upgrade in the speaker you could find improved quality from better cables. Just keep the budget in check! Those Dragons cost more than a new car.

[AnotherJohnson]

More powe cord and interconnect follies underway.

I picked up a pair of two meter Transparent MM2 power cords. These are the best (supposedly) of the last generation of Transparent’s development. They may come in handy as I reconfigure my system to accept the REF 250 SEs.

I was “loaned” a two meter pair of balanced Transparent Ultra interconnects. They may also find a home in the reconfigured system too.

The Transparent Ultras were nice. But the Thunderbirds were noticeably more “exciting” in my system. Some may prefer what I would describe as the laid back gentle sound. I like dynamics and detail, and with my gear and these criteria, the Thunderbirds are the keepers.

A 2m pair of these Ultras was around $3k at msrp. A 2m pair of Thunderbird Zeros is $5400 at msrp. So simply based on the place in the product lineup, it’s not surprising that the Thunderbirds were perceived as more transparent than the Transparents.

[AnotherJohnson]

Those Dragons cost more than a new car.

I remember when I first splurged on a pair of AQ McKenzies. It was a hard sell to get me to do it. But I’d already heard the lower level stuff and it did not hold up well compared to my leftover Van Den Hulls, Straightwires, etc. from back in the day. So I was offered McKenzies at about 40% of msrp, and I bit. It’s almost like “first one’s free.”

Even at 40% of msrp, they were expensive by my standards. I stopped at McKenzies because they sounded good (better than my references), and because dealers here did not stock higher models to audition.

So … here we are down the road, and at retail prices, there’s $50k+ installed or on the shelves here. I’ve got a couple of thousand dollars worth of McKenzies sitting idle, most of them single ended from my CJ based systems.

FWIW, the first house I ever bought was less than a mile from the University of Virginia campus, and it cost less than the msrp of the cable products laying around my current house.

I just checked the Zillow estimate on that house. It’s $350k, so up by a factor of 7+.

A great SOTA cable in those days would have had an msrp of $50. Today a great SOTA cable is going to run well into 4, or even 5, figures … so cables have inflated way faster than houses. And house appreciate, but cables depreciate.

Some one used the term “invest” in reference to their audio system. Unless you bought Marantz or McIntosh in the 60’s, there is no such thing as an audio system “investment.”

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one mate, as you go up that cable chain... things really improve by quite a margin. I know the feeling and experience of that!

One thing to remember though is that although the higher end cables are no doubt superior in every way, they can also make or break a system... such that, cables are highly system dependent. So there's no one size fits all thing going on here.

Once you've entered the highend level in cables and accessories, this is where things get really interesting. With the vast array and choice of materials available, across various top end budgets, really speaking sky's the limit!
With every type of component, and system config, there's a perfect level of detail, musicality and performance that will be achieved by using a certain level of cables. That's the threshold! Once you change that threshold or try to push beyond that point, things can get tricky, such that it's not the cable that's the limiting factor, rather the component has reached it level of performance. And... then after the top ridiculously priced cables have been introduced then we start changing components and before you know it, the gear is different... the vicious cycle continues!

I've learned that every system and it's components needs a certain level of quality accessories. Once you find the right type and it's reached a level beyond your expectations, just leave it and enjoy those fine tunes!

If you're seriously considering a higher grade in cables and accessories then also be prepared to spend a lot more on changing gear as well because it never ends. It always begins!

So, with what you've gone through with the AQ cables and other accessories, such as the PS Audio AC power gear, I believe you're on the right track. Once you get the S-Daws installed, the whole presentation will be elevated beyond your expectations. That's the point where I would leave it, sit back and enjoy those fine tunes.

Pushing it further in the cable category... get ready to change to ARC Ref10 level or higher in the Ref160M's or even the Ref320M. Like I said, sky's the limit!

Cheers mate, have a good one now.
Woof! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

For years CJ and ARC have both recommended that you use the best interconnects and speaker cables you can afford. Both have recommended that you use aftermarket power cords at your own peril. And both have said that you can’t improve on their sound by buying tubes from an aftermarket vendor or by tube rolling.

Several years ago a high muckity muck at CJ told me that CJ gear was less sensitive to interconnect choice than many of the other brands, and to choose interconnects with the help of your CJ dealer.

CJ dealers in the US are usually very small. They may operate out of their house. They don’t typically stock a wide range of speaker or wire choices.

I’d love to try a full set of Transparents, a full set of Nordost, a full set of Shunyata, a full set of Cardas, etc etc etc.

The one that’s handy for me to try is AudioQuest, so that’s the one I’ve chosen. The fact that I’m somewhat “hardwired” into good pricing is a factor too.

I’m a big picture type of listener. I love exciting, dynamic, detailed, up front presentations. I’m really not hung up on “height of instruments” as a descriptor or listening parameter. I have a lot of live and intimate listening experience, from playing with others to center front to orchestra to loges. Instrument height is not something I cue in on. In fact, if you squish a 30+’ wide 15+’ tall stage into the 10-‘ wide 6-‘ tall typical speaker separation, the height scale thing is really a red herring. How tall is a saxophone? How tall is a piano? Double bass? Trombone vs trumpet? Clarinet? Bassoon? You get the picture.

The sound emerges from each instrument and is picked up by the mikes. One mike? Stereo pair? Several floating? On the sound board or over the top of the piano? On the bridge or inside the guitar … or on a stand at lap level?

A lot of descriptive sound stage info is either contrived in the mix, peculiar to the specific miking, or just holographic imagination by the listener.

I have a recording made of the David Hazeltine Trio playing the Jobim Songbook. Chesky gives the map of instruments and microphone. You can place the instruments in the sonic field pretty accurately if your room and system are up to it. Because the trio will fit in your room believably if necessary. I’ve got a Sheffield DtoD of an orchestra that also includes a map of instruments and microphone. You cannot fit the orchestra into most rooms. So attempts to reproduce the original session are futile.

All of this fine tweaking just helps you create a listening experience that is best for that listener.

I’m pretty happy with the AQ stuff. And I really don’t want to hear the Dragons. Retailers tell me that my system is now one of the best and that I could benefit from top of the line wires …. I don’t want to know. If I compare my home sound to demos at great dealers, my home sound holds up well … and it crushes anything at dealers within a 200 mile radius.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve got several days of listening in on the AQ Thunderbird Zero 72V DBS speaker cables.

On some of my reference cuts, the elevation of the living presence feeling is so clear as to be unarguable. The other possibility is that the REF 6SE, which is now well over 400 hours, is hitting its stride. But stuff I’ve used as a reference for 60 years is showing major heretofore missing detail.

Is there synergy between the Thunderbird interconnects and the Thunderbird speaker cable? I don’t know. But I do know that this combination sounds very musical, very exciting, and very real in my ARC/Wilson based system.

[admin]

Not surprising that there may be some synergy with the different cable types in the same line.

I think the big question is how these cables will fit in with the Sasha DAWs when they arrive. They must be getting close to delivery now.

[AnotherJohnson]

Or even Alexia Vs.

Actually, I think the Sabrinas, LS28SE, and REF 75SE take you to a place where all of this stuff is obvious.

I know that at Paragon they’re committed to Transparent.
And the internal wiring on Wilsons is all supplied as custom by Transparent.

If I were going to go off on an OCD quest for wires, I’d probably look to the high end of Transparent first.

But everybody likes their own best. The Nordost aficionados are focused on Nordost. The Shunyata folks on Shunyata. Transparent, Cardas, AudioQuest, etc.

Many years ago (several decades ago actually) Stereophile did a major double blind multi reviewer shoot out with speaker cables of those days. At the end, some extension cord from a big box store that had been butchered to turn it into a speaker cable was one of the top choices. And, iirc, the gauge 18 zip cord was not among the final choices. Maybe someone else remembers this better than I do.

So … I think these cables, interconnects, and cords are so expensive that it only makes sense to buy them at 50% or less of msrp. Used, or if you’ve got access, wholesale.

And so … “love the one you’re with” makes sense to me.

The likelihood that wires would do well with one part of the Wilson lineup, and not another is just borrowing trouble. I know that Paragons take on Transparent vs AQ or Nordost is that they’re committed to Transparent. And they’re not sure what the recent versions of other stuff sounds like. Dealers do not tend to carry all the cable options. They carry the option that’s given them the best reliability, best margin, best response and deliverability, and best street credibility based on reviewer reactions.

I’m using AQ. To replace them with comparable Transparent would cost at least $35k at retail, and I don’t have access to significantly better pricing.

On the used market high end Transparent is a bust because they custom tune the network in each wire to your specific devices. A high end Transparent for McIntosh Mc462 to Wilson Chronosonic would be factory tuned different from a Conrad Johnson Art 27A to Wilson Maxx 3.