CJ Premier Five refresh story with happy ending

[Pynchon]

Hi AnotherJohnson,

The Shasha DAWs destined for the ARC Ref75SE? I have never listened to them but they look a little easier to drive than the Sabrinas.

Did you deme the DAWs with an ARC amp? It will be interesting to read your thoughts when you hook them up.

[Pynchon]

Hi RJ,

Your input is much appreciated and makes absolute sense to me.

With the Prem8As and Prem8XS (EL34 triode version), I read somewhere that Lew Johnson acknowledged most Prem8s running triode were eventually converted back to UL.

Be that as it may, this was never something I would take on in the near term. Too much listening pleasure to be had running them UL and testing the other speakers - perhaps while contrasting the multiple vintages of D'Arenberg Dead Arm in the cellar as far back as 1998...

All the best!

[AnotherJohnson]

The Shasha DAWs destined for the ARC Ref75SE? I have never listened to them but they look a little easier to drive than the Sabrinas.

Did you deme the DAWs with an ARC amp? It will be interesting to read your thoughts when you hook them up.

1. Contrary to some reviews, I have found the Sabrinas to be easy to drive on the 4 ohm taps of the REF75SE. In fact, until I read David Wilson’s books and spent a few weeks with the Sabrinas, I’d never understood Wilson or his use of the terms Dynamic Contrast and Harmonic Expression. The Sabrinas demonstrate these in spades. I actually prefer the REF 75 SE to the LP275Ms on the Sabrinas. There is more of everything that is good about them with the REF75SE.

2. I have not demo’d the Sasha DAWs. They’re about impossible to find. This did not bother me. I know David and Daryl’s hearts … the Sasha DAWs will be the best that Wilson can conjure at the price point. I am patiently waiting as they build my pair. There is a four month backlog.

One other thought on the demo idea … in 40 years of showroom demos I HAVE NEVER HAD A SHOWROOM DEMO THAT CAME CLOSE TO WHAT I CAN DO AT HOME.

3. DAW himself did not take the reviewers who argued about the amps seriously. I expect myself that between the 75 and the 275s, one will drive them well … and probably both will.

The Sabrinas were/are so good, I just had to try the Sasha DAWs.

[AnotherJohnson]

One other thought on the demo idea … in 40 years of showroom demos I HAVE NEVER HAD A SHOWROOM DEMO THAT CAME CLOSE TO WHAT I CAN DO AT HOME.

This was true for several Wilson models. They never sounded right in showroom demos. Over several years. And over models up to $100k.

Two things happened that made me roll the dice.

First, my salesman/longtime friend finally dialed in the $339k Chronosonic XVX. I “got it” instantly. He had the time alignment right, perhaps for the first time. They were amazing. We then listened down the line to the usual unimpressive disappointment.

Over the next several weeks I mulled over the idea of buying a low level Wilson to play with at home. I was not dissatisfied with my Revel F228Bes. I was just curious about playing with Wilsons at home.

I asked my friend to check with the factory to see if there were any deals on review samples, show samples, certified preowned, etc. He did not come up with anything.

But another dealer from whom I’ve bought quite a bit of gear was able to come up with a pair of NOS Sabrinas for a price in the right range, so I bought them. I did not expect them to beat the Revels at my house. The Revels had always won the showroom comparos…

The Revel vs Sabrina comparo didn’t really lead to a definitive preference until the Sabrinas had three days play under their belts. Then they bloomed … I gushed about it in another thread. They’ve pulled well ahead of the also excellent Revels at this point. The Sabrinas were so impressive that my curiosity called me to move up to a current model higher in the line. Hence the Sasha DAWs on order.

Tonight I am listening to The King’s College Choir perform Bach’s St. Matthew Passion. It is sung in Bach’s native German. German is a “second” language for me. I am not as good at deciphering less than perfect choral music in German compared to my skill in English.

The clarity and diction is stunning on this system with the Sabrinas. It takes this type of music to another level for me.

The system’s power is supplied by a PS Audio P12. The source tonight is a Levinson 5101 SACD player, through balanced AQ McKenzies to an ARC REF 6, through balanced AQ McKenzies to the ARC REF 75SE, on through AQ William Tell Zero 72 V DBS cables, to the Sabrinas. The P12 is plugged into the wall via an AQ Monsoon power chord. The REF 75 SE is plugged in via a fancy Shunyata of some sort, as is the REF 6. The Levinson has its OEM chord.

It is presenting this performance at a level I’ve never heard outside of live performance up to this time. I’ve listened to these SACDs many times since it was released in 2020. This set up is special.

FWIW, I’ve ordered three 1M balanced AQ Wind 72 V DBS interconnects to replace the McKenzies in my system.

[AnotherJohnson]

Over the next several weeks I mulled over the idea of buying a low level Wilson to play with at home. I was not dissatisfied with my Revel F228Bes. I was just curious about playing with Wilsons at home.

A major motivation for this, in addition to the Chronosonic audition, was that I’d read both The Wilson Way and DAW’s personal book on the art of asking the right questions.

My interest in DAW as a fellow man of science AND of faith, was piqued. I felt the same way about William Z. Johnson after reading ARC’s Making the Music Glow.

Both DAW and WZJ were posthumously recognized (by me) as men after my own heart.

I think the fact that both DAW and WZJ preferred classical and choral music in their own listening is part of what makes listening to classical and choral music so enjoyable on a system comprised of their components.

Ironically, WZJ hated jazz. I love jazz. So we’re not like two peas in a pod. But both DAW and WZJ were men of both science AND faith, albeit different faiths. Both were obsessed with bringing their very best. Both disappointed some early supporters. Both learned the business at great personal expense. Both successfully transitioned their companies to survive their passing.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, that's a definite!

These aren't just ordinary audio electronics companies, that churn out gear for the sake of gear... there's much to be said from these brands, much to be learned about their rich history. CJ, ARC, VTL, Manley Labs, Jadis, Classe, Pass Labs, Wilson, Magnepan, ML and so on, aren't ordinary audio companies. Their founders had great passion, and most of all designed gear with high Fidelity towards the truth in recorded music.

Thankful enough, some of them are in good hands now and towards the future, however a few have fallen off the wayside... Quad for example, completely gone wrong.

Big corporations are buying out smaller companies knowing that they're in financial strife. This is how they perform and start producing boxes instead of precision musical instruments. We can only continue to support our beloved brands and much cherished recorded music but the question is, for how long? Times change and in time to come, I wonder if CJ or ARC would even be around... Tube gear might be just something of the past. I highly doubt the newer gen is really interested in tubes.

Anything plugged into some WiFi gadget that downloads tunes will do! That's the next gen. So why pay 100s & 1000s of $$$ for tubes... they won't understand it.

For as long as companies like Wilson can carry on the legacy and heritage of their brand, it will survive. However, at what price point and in which country will manufacturing continue is yet to be determined by many, not just Wilson.

Could this be one reason why CJ's ART108A's cost 50grand.
Don't know.
Cheers, just enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[Pynchon]

Completely concur with your rational and faith in select companies that have been truly faithful to their mission and passion.

I started with the Focal 1008BEs which were part of the driving force for my "re-entree" in to fine audio after 20+ year hiatus.

I picked up an ARC CA50 and sent it back to ARC for a full refresh. When is came back, I kept listening to them vs my B&W Nautilus 805s taken from my surround system. The 805s are nice but I ultimately preferred the Focals. Now the 805s are at the cabin keeping company with by father's Luxman M-300 Class A/AB amp, his M&K Subwoofer, a PS Audio Stellar Gain and a FOZ SSX just for fun.

Not sure emulating AJ's Wilson path would be a good idea - specifically first listening to speakers like the $339k Chronosonic XVX . My purchase of the 1038 BEs and SW1000 BE made based purely upon the 1008 BEs. Listening to the Focal Grande Utopia EM EVOs would not a good idea for me - rising expectations and all. Too many other hobbies & interests, 4 kids (none of which have started college) and a lovely wife I would like to remain married with...

I look forward to reading how you like the Sasha DAWs when they arrive - driven by both the ARC and CJ amps!

AJ, you are running all AudioQuest cabling. Have you tried others? You may have noticed that I am a bit of a tinkerer. Built my speaker cables using the Mogami 3104 cable as the base. Very pleased. For interconnects, I have stuck with Blue Jeans Cables here in the Seattle. Good quality product and very reasonable price. One exception, I have a pair of balanced AQ Water cables for the ARC. With both of my tube preamps only supporting RCA, I use Jenson Transformer PI-2XX Two channel line input isolator to convert from RCA to balanced. For power chords, I have stuck with NRG Custom out of Canada. Not inexpensive but really high quality for the money. They are massive beasts!

Have faith, RJ. The next generation will continue to catch on to the world of tubes and fine audio. Though Tidal streaming is just damn convenient, vinyl has certainly had a resurgence! I am a little surprised with cassette tapes gaining traction of late.

[AnotherJohnson]

I have tried others, and also built my own.

My relationship with the local AQ dealer is worth a lot to me, and it extends to both pricing and support.

If I were to change at this point, it would be to Transparent. But the cost would be enormous, and the gain is unknown.

I’m more interested in listening than tinkering, so that flips the switch in favor of my approach for me.

As Roberto says, “your ears, your system.” I think there are many excellent choices.

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day to Pynchon!

How are those Prem5's going? Things should have nicely settled in by now... and I was just wondering if you managed to set up the ML CLS stats as yet?

Looking forward to your findings. I'm thinking you're also probably using the Focal sub with the CLS...?

Woof! RJ

[Pynchon]

Hello RJ,

Good to hear from you.

They are settling into their own. I have been enjoying them tremendously as well as the rest of the family. One of our sons turned 16 on 9 Oct. and he had five friends spend the night. They were immediately drawn the the system so my wife played some of their bass-intensive music and turned it up to "3". Needless to say, they were blown away (literally and figuratively). I think I have to re-enforce the roof of the house now...

I did move the Ref75SE upstairs and paired it with my father's Luxman CL-34 tube preamp, another Metrum Dac and the 1008BEs. The subwoofer will likely migrate upstairs for a bit.

Have not tried the CLSs yet. I did pull out Dad's old MG1s. They certainly tapped much more power out of the Prem5s than the 1038BEs. The wire to the right MG1 speaker tweeter has come loose and was buzzing. Gather it is an easy fix but I don't think I will bother. Their sound does not deliver the luster I remember as a kid.

The Premier Fives sit in an a somewhat acoustically space and there is only so far I can go before I bump into the wife's tolerance limits... As such, I pulled out the Spatial Audio M1s to try with the CJ amps. Again, with high efficiency speakers rated at 4 ohms, they do not draw much out of the CJs. The open baffle design presents interesting advantages in this particular room: bass projection and soundstage are impressive. Compared to the 1038BEs, the M1s sound muffled at the higher end. Heard there are some upgrade possibilities I may explore.

Although I have backed off the notion of trying to convert the Prem5s to triode (they sound too good as is), I am still keeping my eye out for interesting project options in triode world. I am going to look at a pair VAC PA-90 monoblocks with separate power supplies and switchable from ultralinear to triode. Think they were built in 1991 - a little newer than the Prem5s.

And down under? Any developments we should hear about?

Enjoy the weekend.

Brian

[Big Dog RJ]

Oh! Nice one mate, sounds like everyone's really enjoying those fine tunes.

Yes, I understand the sound quality you'd be getting from those speakers vs the Maggie's... quite different indeed.
As far as the triode XS version is considered on the Prem5's, certainly sounds like you're absolutely enjoying it, so why bother!

However, that triode switchable mode on the VAC amps sounds like a promising one. In fact, when I had Manley Labs gear, one of the newer models the Manley 250's had this UL to Triode switchable option. It was quite interesting initially but then got too carried away flipping switches far too often, I lost focus in the music.

BTW when you do get a chance to set up the ML CLS stats, you'll notice the difference between music with finesse! It will be marvellous!

Apart from our unusual floods down unda... quite a large area in central Vic and Nsw are affected. Being trying to help a few people in need, which is a good thing. We're ok located in Nth suburbs, plenty of rain though. Just recovered from another bout of covid..., damn covid! Other than that enjoying those fine tunes. Listening to Carla Cook on Max Jazz label CD spinning on my Esoteric digital player.
Sounds fabulous!

Woof! RJ

[Conradferg]

The pictures look great, I just had a problem with one of my mono amps. I downloaded the CJ Premier Five schematics but they are hard to read even blown up. Do you have access to a cleaner schematic or point me in the right direction

[Pynchon]

Hi,

I had a large printed version with notations passed to me from the previous owner. However, I primarily used the schematics downloaded from this forum.