Streaming reliability and streamer updating

[AnotherJohnson]

Lately when I sit down to listen to music through my Marantz ND8006/Heos component, I find that it has lost its WiFi connection.

Getting it back is often convoluted, at least to a mind used to playing hard media which is not reliant on WiFi.

I’ve found that the root of the problem seems to often be associated with automatic software updates of the ND8006 where after updates it has trouble reconnecting.

The WiFi signal is strong at the ND8006, so that’s not the problem.

The solution that has evolved is to unplug the ND8006, reboot, run set up, and it all falls back into place.

I realize that the ND8006/HEOS setup is not a high end source.

Those of you that have more expensive audiophile level streamers - does this happen to you too?

I find it frustrating to go to listen, and then have to take five to ten minutes to actually get the component to work.

[admin]

This most likely is a software/configuration problem. Reading the reviews on the Marantz site other users are having connection issues as well. I don't think "more expensive audio level streamers" are necessarily any better (in terms of connectivity or software). If you really think about it, a $25 fire stick or roku is also technically a streamer and those are very reliable. I use a Bluesound Node streamer. BluOS (NAD) and Heos (Marantz/Denon) are probably the two major competitors in this space. I've been on the Bluesound forums and connectivity issues do happen for some people as well. Clearly Heos is no different.

I would probably start with their support service: https://support.marantz.com/app/home/se ... UyMSUyMQ==

AVS forums also has a lot of topics on this.

I would also make sure that your wifi router is up to date with the latest firmware.

[AnotherJohnson]

I did update the router when I installed it new a few months back. That doesn’t mean there aren’t new updates though. It was a tedious process, and required phone assistance from Comcast.

It seems to be more related to the HEOS auto updates. I’ve turned that off for now. But ignoring updates often leads to problems later.

I think the software and firmware updates are the new “nothing is certain but death and taxes.”

[admin]

If you keep an eye on the updates they are releasing to make sure it's not some security issue, you can pretty much skip them. Often times they are releasing patches for functions that you never use or fixes for problems that only affect a smaller number of users (and as long as that is not you, who cares). My streamer has received multiple updates since I have bought it. The vast majority did not change the functioning of the unit. One important update added USB out which I would have manually upgraded for. The other updates were all "behind the scenes" that has not changed how the app actually works (for me at least).

[AnotherJohnson]

My Albums from the 50’s all still play every time. My TTs still turn unhindered by security issues. I can update with new tone arm, cartridge, etc at my leisure.

I know … that ship has sailed.

[admin]

I hear ya. I know we talked about this before and there is nothing wrong with liking the physical media (or not). Each has it's pros and cons. I love touching my LP's (and laserdiscs for video), but I also get the pros of streaming (both audio and video). Streaming will be a more "complex" system and most likely have functional issues. The software relies on tens of thousands of lines of code which is constantly changing with updates and also has to be compatible with the streaming services software. Not to mention the software running intermediary devices like your router. At the same time, having immediate access to 75 million tracks and pretty much ever new release on day one at a press of a button for $10 a month also offers advantages.

As for the marantz unit, if the only major problem is losing connection after updates, I would just turn the updates off and maybe do it manually every few months to keep up with the latest functions. If it is functioning well with basic use, no real reason to keep the auto-update feature on full time.

[Truth71]

Not meaning to open a hornets nest, but I’ve not heard “streamed” audio that doesn’t have some form of digital artifact.

[Joe Appierto]

AJ: I'm guessing you're using your own router and not one supplied by Comcast? I know the advantage to using your own is no monthly rental charge from Comcast. I'm using one of their Arris models and it seems to work okay but I've never tried any others so I don't know what I may be missing in terms of performance.

[admin]

Not meaning to open a hornets nest, but I’ve not heard “streamed” audio that doesn’t have some form of digital artifact.

Interesting. What kind of "artifacts"? Do you mean it just sounds "digital" vs analog, or something else? There can be many types of streaming. Via services like apple music, amazon, spotify, tidal, quboz, etc... Some of these are not lossless so that does certainly change the sound. You can also stream from your own private server. So ripping a CD into Flac and steaming that really should be the equivalent of a CD source.

[admin]

AJ: I'm guessing you're using your own router and not one supplied by Comcast? I know the advantage to using your own is no monthly rental charge from Comcast. I'm using one of their Arris models and it seems to work okay but I've never tried any others so I don't know what I may be missing in terms of performance.

General connection issues certainly can be caused by router issues. I've gone through a number of routers, both cheap and expensive. There behavior can be unpredictable. "Expensive" routers are not always superior to cheap ones when it comes to day to day use. Low latency modes multiple antennas in these models are more for special circumstances like gaming. When it comes to streaming music, the file sizes are simply not that big and streamers are going to buffer the tracks in memory prior to sending it to the DAC.

If you want full control (and willing to put in the time and effort), you can get an Openwrt compatible router and run custom firmware that really unlocks a lot of functions and precise control. But for most people, this is really not needed.

[AnotherJohnson]

AJ: I'm guessing you're using your own router and not one supplied by Comcast? I know the advantage to using your own is no monthly rental charge from Comcast. I'm using one of their Arris models and it seems to work okay but I've never tried any others so I don't know what I may be missing in terms of performance.

I’m actually using their (Comcast’s) latest.

At the other house we have a DSL line. That router genuinely sucks. I have to reboot it regularly for every device. Not just for a streamer.

Regarding the digital vs analog stuff, for me it’s not extra stuff in the digital, but lack of the right stuff in some, but not all, cases. “Perfect sound forever” …

Access to big libraries is the major benefit. I can see the appeal. No footprint (have you seen Fremmer’s record collection?). No cleaning machine. No headaches with cartridge/arm setup. No ticks and pops. I get it.

[admin]

At the other house we have a DSL line. That router genuinely sucks. I have to reboot it regularly for every device. Not just for a streamer.

If you really want to head down this rabbit hole, here are some recommendations for OpenWrt compatible routers. Prices vary greatly based on what you need: https://www.gadgetreview.com/best-openwrt-routers

For connection issues, you can also put a 2nd router near the end device and connect via ethernet. This will essentially bypass the wifi connection component in the streamer and should get rid of connection problems with device-to-main-router as the connection is now essentially plug and play without security protocols, etc...

[AnotherJohnson]

I think if you really want to stream, you have to get into this fully. It’s too impactful to ignore.

The reason for my original post was that three nights in a row I was very late to come to listening, and I wanted the convenience of just flopping, hitting the remote, and closing my eyes. Instead I had to grab a folding chair, sit next to the ND8006, troubleshoot and reboot. It’s easier to put a long CD on repeat. Laziness and comparison … major sources of discontent.

[AnotherJohnson]

My first CD players were changers. I had one in the house and one in the trunk of my Lincoln Town Car (controlled from the head unit - I’m pretty sure it was aftermarket). The magazines held 6 disks. That was a very convenient system for house parties and road trips. I had 15 or 20 6 disk magazines. I don’t know if anything like it today. Great convenience. We never pretended house parties or road trips had to be high end.

[admin]

Ah funny, we had one of those in the late 80's early 90's. Likewise, we had players in the car and the house. If memory serves, it was a pioneer 6 disk cartridge. Not sure if other manufactures made the same cartridge type.

[Joe Appierto]

Maybe we're streaming different stuff. I have one Ethernet connection going to my Oppo 105D and another Ethernet going to the PS Audio DS DAC both from the Comcast router. I use JRiver and Foobar to stream music wirelessly from my laptop to the Comcast router and then it's a wired connection to both. Although I can set the 105D to receive the signal from the router wirelessly by changing one parameter on its set-up menu. The only other thing I stream is Netflix to the Oppo or I use the Comcast app to watch Netflix. It has never been problematic for me regardless of what I'm watching/listening to. I don't have Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, etc. Maybe if I did things would be different.

[Truth71]

"Interesting. What kind of "artifacts"? Do you mean it just sounds "digital" vs analog, or something else? There can be many types of streaming. Via services like apple music, amazon, spotify, tidal, quboz, etc... Some of these are not lossless so that does certainly change the sound. You can also stream from your own private server. So ripping a CD into Flac and steaming that really should be the equivalent of a CD source."

Loss of information is primary. There isn't as much "there" there. Neil Young, amongst others, has campaigned against digital. Also it "sounds" digital, "electronic" vs the sound of live acoustic ( or classical music).

[admin]

"Interesting. What kind of "artifacts"? Do you mean it just sounds "digital" vs analog, or something else? There can be many types of streaming. Via services like apple music, amazon, spotify, tidal, quboz, etc... Some of these are not lossless so that does certainly change the sound. You can also stream from your own private server. So ripping a CD into Flac and steaming that really should be the equivalent of a CD source."

Loss of information is primary. There isn't as much "there" there. Neil Young, amongst others, has campaigned against digital. Also it "sounds" digital, "electronic" vs the sound of live acoustic ( or classical music).

This is a little surprising as data is usually error checked automatically. So, unlike say a radio transmission, where if you lose signal you get static or cutouts, streaming happens in packets. Those packets are checked that they have been received. If a packet is lost or corrupted, then there will be a request to resend it. Corruption checking with internet downloads are done via checksum. Even if there are connection issues, you should never see data loss unless the download completely errors out and then you wouldn't be able to play it. Just think about when you download those 80 GB (not MB like songs) programs and games. You can run those programs fine and not one bit is off in the entire download (even if your internet connection is dropped or there are errors). Streamed music is not played in real time. It's buffered, sometimes the entire song will be downloaded even before it starts playing, or at least a few minutes is downloaded and buffered before playing.

Not doubting what you hear. It's just I don't have a good explanation for what you are hearing.

[AnotherJohnson]

For me, even if the digital vs analog debate falls one way or the other, the reliability of streaming just kills it for me.

Granted, I’m sitting on a giant pile of CDs, SACDs and vinyl, not to mention cassettes, so if I don’t stream, I’ve still got plenty of material.

If I were starting out today? I doubt I would gravitate toward the high end. Tonight the problem isn’t in my WiFi. It’s at the distant source. If this intermittent BS were all I knew, I’d lose interest in music. I’m going to now try to get a different service going (one of my other choices that are already available).

[AnotherJohnson]

Ah funny, we had one of those in the late 80's early 90's. Likewise, we had players in the car and the house. If memory serves, it was a pioneer 6 disk cartridge. Not sure if other manufactures made the same cartridge type.

I had delayed purchasing a CD player when they first came out. Auditions did not impress me. My LP12 + Ittok + Ortofon + HW17 +PV5 gave a very quiet presentation. Ticks and pops and other vinyl “noise” were not a problem. Dynamics and image and general presence were as good or better with vinyl. Records were $3 to $7. CDs were $12 to $20. I had no incentive to be an early adopter.

When CD prices dropped in the late 80’s, I opted to buy changers because of their convenience as noted (house parties and road trips).

I did not consider CDs to be an authentic high end sound until SACDs were introduced. The Marantz SACD players sounded good to me. Especially the SA8005.

Streaming? Meh…

I “get it.” But whenever I actually get it, it disappoints. As in the recent examples.

Your system, your ears, your tolerance, your patience, your goals …. You’re mileage may vary …