Streaming reliability and streamer updating

[AnotherJohnson]

Tonight my wife came to get me while I was getting the SACD Wagner Ring Cycle started.

The Vizio TV that she watches had lost its network connection too.

It turned out to be the same basic issue … the TV had lost its network connection when trying to do a firmware update.

I went through the kabuki dance, got it back on the network, did the download, let it install, and after about 20 minutes all tolled, she was back in business.

Now I’m back to the two channel and Die Valkyrie.

Some may recall that my ARC adventure started several months back when I’d picked up a used LS28, and was surprised that it was easier to parse the German lyrics with the LS28 than with my CJ preamp.

I had the LS28 updated to SE status … easier still. Picked up a REF 75 SE, easier again. Then REF 6 - again easier still.

Tonight with the Sabrinas in place, the German lyrics are perfectly understandable as though the singers were in front of me and practicing good diction.

I never noticed any of this with English lyrics. My brain was compensating for any uncertainty in English lyrics. German is not my native language, so my brain was not compensating and lack of perfect clarity was presented as such.

A strength of the Wilson speaker design methodology is that David liked to listen to, and record, complex classical and religious choral works. He used this kind of program material in listening evaluations.

If I’d had any doubts about the verity of the ARC REF/Wilson presentation, they would be dispelled by this performance tonight. Once again, I am shocked that this level is possible.

It really does pique my interest in speakers higher up the Wilson chain. I can’t help but wonder what new subtleties and nuances remain as yet uncovered. The German lyrics in this very familiar recording are absolutely easy to understand. My vocabulary and grammar are pretty good. Native speakers have complimented me by saying “your errors are not annoying.”

This opera is actually enjoyable when you can hear it so clearly.

[Wildcat]

Firmware issues can be frustrating indeed! And it's surprising how many devices I own have some sort of OS, firmware and/or software that continually needs upgrading. Fortunately it's all automatic for the most part, and problems have been few and far between.

Even my new turntable has a USB port under the platter to load new firmware if needed.

For networking, though, I had to get beyond the usual consumer-grade products and go with something solid and reliable. I always buy my own modem to connect to the Internet provider, and use it only for that connection--I use none of its networking features. It connects via Ethernet to a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X, which in turn connects to an 8-port unmanaged switch. From the switch, I send Ethernet to the two NAS boxes, the wireless access point (WAP--more on that below), and Ethernet out to different areas of the house.

In each room that needs Ethernet, I add another 5-port switch, which gives us the outputs we need. In fact, I have two switches in the family room--a 5-port by the computer, with an 8-port downstream from that which feeds the audio and video systems. (Think of a 5-port switch as something like a y-adapter for Ethernet, where you have one incoming port and four outgoing, for instance.)

For the WAP, I originally had a Ubiquiti UniFi AP-AC-PRO that I installed in late 2017 that has worked really well. The house we're in is a bungalow, so it's more like a cube shape (with a roof) than anything else. We got a strong signal through most of the house, and poor signals indoors were a think of the past. Where I was falling a bit short was with the security cameras outside the house (with dropouts, and failures to connect), and it was dicey trying to stream audio to the detached garage. As an example, opening the iSpy or TinyCam Pro surveillance programs/apps, it could take as much as a minute or two for all the cameras to come online, and usually one or two would fail to connect or drop out shortly after.

I upgraded the UniFi to the recent UniFi U6-LR, LR being "long range," and now the cameras all come online within 10-15 seconds, and drops are now infrequent. The UniFi WAPs are optimized for ceiling mounting (since the antennas are more prone to broadcasting out the edges of the "saucer"), but the U6-LR has a good range out the front and back also, and I only have means to wall mount it at the moment. I can still use the old AP-AC-PRO as an additional access point, even wirelessly like a "relay" or mesh in a remote location, like the garage.

That change to a UniFi WAP is what made WiFi so much better in the house. Prior to that, I was using as many as three Linksys router/WAPs running DD-WRT only to still get spotty coverage throughout the house, despite the "mesh" of access points. Upgrading to a long range UniFi WAP only made a good thing better.

Ubiquiti also has UniFi mesh systems that reportedly work quite well.

The only drawback to my system is that it does require a little network knowledge to get everything configured. A wizard on the EdgeRouter will help with setup basics but to optimize everything, it takes a bit of know-how. Same with the WAPs, which are accessed via a "Controller" you install on a computer (or presumably, by a phone app) where you set everything up. But once it's set up? So much better.

I don't fully buy into the "audiophile" switches and routers, largely because data via Ethernet can only arrive error-free (due to how packets are delivered and acknowledged by the Ethernet standards), or drops out completely to where you would notice something grossly wrong. But where they can offer an advantage is in shielding the greater network from an audio component, via better grounding or isolation. But it's certainly not worth orders of magnitude more expense than a network switch, which is a commodity item. (5-port TP-Link switches can be had for $20 or less, each.)

One neat feature of the upcoming PS Audio AirLens streamer is that a lot of the design effort was put towards galvanic isolation on all inputs, which takes exterior noise completely out of the equation. Hoping to get a beta unit in here for a listen when it's released in the coming months.

[AnotherJohnson]

Thanks for the detailed response.

I’ve had better success in recent months. But I’m focused more on hard media for my critical listening. My minimal skills are proving adequate to get things going again after problems surface with streaming. If I didn’t have an extensive library of records, CDs, and SACDs, I’d put more effort into streaming. The obvious advantage that streaming services offer in their access to a far wider range of programs is hard to argue against. But I’m still not a fan of sharing my listening habits with the companies that provide streaming content.

I enjoy my trips to “the stacks” to select my listening choices most evenings.

[admin]

Wildcat gave a very long and detailed summary and suggestions but things like running custom firmware and setting up wifi bridges are not for everybody. I will say that the easiest and most sure way of fixing connection issues is to use a good old fashioned ethernet cable that you plug into the router and then your device. It's plug and play, no passwords, and doesn't require any configuration. The downside of course is having to run a cable.

[roberto]

I use hardwired too. From my router to my Mac Pro. This ensures the right connection and also no passwords. I am with Admin, no problems this way. If I want, I can choose at the computer if I want to use direct wired or wifi.
Happy listening!

[Wildcat]

Wildcat gave a very long and detailed summary and suggestions but things like running custom firmware and setting up wifi bridges are not for everybody. I will say that the easiest and most sure way of fixing connection issues is to use a good old fashioned ethernet cable that you plug into the router and then your device. It's plug and play, no passwords, and doesn't require any configuration. The downside of course is having to run a cable.

I agree--if I'm streaming, whether it's from the Internet or my NAS (network attached storage, where all of my music files live), and the device has an Ethernet port, I will use that.

Some are saying that WiFi is often superior sounding since there is no need for galvanic isolation, but if I'm playing a 24/192 or DSD file, it's likely I will get dropouts since so much bandwidth is needed for the WiFi signal. (Same if I'm streaming a 4K video file.) In fact, I encountered that when I was attempting streaming to an Oppo BDP-105--CD-resolution digital usually worked OK, but anything 24/96 and above would often result in dropouts. So, Ethernet for the win.

I do need the WiFi, though, since a lot of the systems I use around the house are in odd locations or have only WiFi access (like the Chromecast Audio pucks I use in a few places like the kitchen, garage, soundbar, etc.). I started moving my collection to a server in 2014 and have not looked back, the only physical format being the turntable and rekkids.

I'll admit my network hardware might be a little more expensive, but all in, it's really not much more than consumer-level equipment for a much larger gain in performance, especially the WiFi. They do offer "wizards" that will assist with basic setup, so it is not as difficult as you'd think--a lot of my configuration has simply been customizing various things that are not essential, but I like things to be orderly. Looking back, other than a couple of custom things I wanted to do with the router, I went with mostly the default settings and it really wasn't all that difficult to set up.

My current setup might be slightly more confusing since the Edgerouter X has its own interface, separate from the UniFi Controller which controls the UniFi access point(s). Ubiquiti has been moving from the EdgeRouters to the UniFi Security Gateway, which is still a router but is now configured and managed in the UniFi Controller alongside the access points.

Our home status is uncertain at the moment*, so everything is tossed together ad-hoc. There are only limited places where I can run Ethernet, so a lot of it is running through existing holes or gaps where I can squeeze a cable through. If we decide to stay here, or if we move, I want to make things more permanent and have proper Ethernet wall outlets.

(* We're at the point where we are both tired of living in the area and debating if we should finally move across the country, or stick around here and find something in a similar neighborhood. Runaway house prices haven't helped, unfortunately.)

[Joe Appierto]

This, like just about everything, is dependent on the system set-up and proximity of the various pieces of equipment.

I use a wired connection from my modem/router to my Oppo 105D. If I'm streaming audio files they're coming wirelessly from the external hard drive attached to my laptop via JRiver. The laptop's about 30 feet from the modem/router and the Oppo for that matter. The files are everything from RBCD 44.1/16 to DSF. Whether I use the wired Ethernet connection from the router to the Oppo or the wireless dongle on the Oppo there are never dropouts.

I will say, however, that the wired connection gives a more robust signal. Even though the Oppo is only a few feet from the router when I'm watching Netflix the signal strength goes from about 38 Mbs wired to around 26 Mbs using the dongle/wireless. Neither way, however, yields any buffering issues.

[roberto]

Hola Joe,

Are you using cat 5 or cat 6 cable in the Ethernet connection?. I use cat 6 and the Internet speed is about the same, hard wired or WIFI. I feel the same as you guys. The hardwired is more stable, but I do not know the reason why.

Happy listening!

[Joe Appierto]

Hi Roberto,

I have a collection of inexpensive Ethernet cables that I use on my PS Audio DirectStream DAC and the Oppo 105D. They vary in length between 3 feet and 2M and run the gamut from 5e to 6 to 6a to 7 to 8. Because the length is so short the category doesn't affect speed although it will affect bandwidth. I find that whether the cable is shielded or not and to a lesser degree whether it's plain copper or silver-plated affects the sound. My favorites for music so far have been the In-Akustik Exzellenz from Germany. They're unshielded, silver-plated, Cat 6 cables.

Regards,
Joe

[admin]

The bandwidth on ethernet will be greater than wifi, but the real advantage will be latency as no streaming service approaches either maximum bandwidth. Latency is an order of magnitude less on ethernet. And then general stability, especially if there is interference or multiple devices connected to wifi. Ethernet cables on short runs shouldn't really matter so you can use whichever you want

[Wildcat]

I use cat 6 and the Internet speed is about the same, hard wired or WIFI. I feel the same as you guys. The hardwired is more stable, but I do not know the reason why.

As @admin pointed out, WiFi can have interference. As I write this, I have 37 devices in my home that are active on WiFi; 30-35 is about average at any given time. Also, neighbors around us all have WiFi, and if a component uses the 2.4GHz band, it is fighting against many other devices both on my own network as well as the neighbors' networks (although their signal strength is much lower). There are fewer devices using the 5 GHz band, but not as many devices support it, even new hardware made today. 2.4 GHz also has narrower and fewer channels, so there is a lot of competition.

The biggest drawback to WiFi is a technical issue in the IP (internet protocol) spec. I'll try to keep it simple since the terminology can be overwhelming. The error correction used in WiFi is the same used for Ethernet, but it is very inefficient for use in WiFi. What happens is, data travels in packets. The packets are sent from one end, and the receiving end takes that packet and compares it to the packet's checksum to make certain the data arrived intact. If not, the receiving device flags the packet as corrupt and the sending device sends the packet again.

Using Ethernet, corrupt packets are very rare, and it usually points to a faulty cable or connection. But with WiFi, packets are often corrupted en route, so there are a lot of retries to get the error-free packet to the receiving device. In other words, it is a very inefficient method of delivering packets error-free. Looking at my stats for the past 24 hours, one of my video cameras has a 40.5% retry rate, with the others at 34.1%, 23.4%, 21.7% and 19.4%. My phones have an average of about 5.5% retry rate, the game console 15%, and one of my Chromecast Audio pucks is at 16.4%.

Those retries are additional traffic that travels over the WiFi signal, in addition to data that is sent correctly. Example--if you get interference in the signal, that latency that @admin mentions can partially be made up of packets that are being retried, on top of the interference from other devices on the same channel and frequency.

The difference between Cat5, Cat6, etc. cables is how tightly the pairs of strands in the cable are twisted together, and/or how well they are shielded. The pairs are twisted to reject noise (using common mode rejection), and a tighter twist rejects more noise. Shielding also rejects noise as well; in Cat7 cable, the individual conductors are shielded, and a copper braid surrounds the shielded wiring; twisted pairs are no longer used, and the greater expense comes from all of the shielding used. If you ever see "UTP" printed on a cable jacket, that means the wiring inside is "unshielded twisted pair," where STP is "shielded twisted pair."

The specifications are based on the amount of data the cable can carry, at a specified distance (usually 100 meters). For instance, Cat5 delivers up to 100Mb/s per 100 meters. Cat5e can deliver 1Gb/s over 100 meters, where Cat6 can deliver a higher rate than that (up to 10 Gb/s at 55 meters). Cat-6a can deliver 10Gb/s over 100 meters. So for very short distances, sure, a cable can deliver a lot higher data rate. But the specifications are based on 100 meters, which is far longer than anyone would ever run within a typical house, making it a good guide to follow. I feel that Cat6 is cheap enough that I have no reason to buy the lower specs anymore.

Your networking equipment also determines the speed--some older equipment only delivers up to 100 Mb/s, where 1 Gb/s (aka "gigabit Ethernet") is very common today. That would be more than fast enough for any streaming we would have in our homes.

The specs for WiFi are too complicated to get into fully, but any modern equipment made in the past year or so will be plenty good enough for what most of us need.

[AnotherJohnson]

I am thrilled that this thread has finally blossomed into a wealth of useful streaming information. I hope to exploit some of it in the coming year.

We have finally come to the point of one residence, and one major system. Adding SOTA streaming is a logical progression.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve digested a lot of the info posted by others above. The issues may be at the root of some of the issues I’ve noticed.

My recent foray into HD and UHD streaming via Amazon through HEOS to the ND8006 has been a better experience than previous efforts. I am not yet working the problem with hardwire, although I’m on track. I need to get Comcast to come out and install Ethernet outlets on which to hang the ND8006, or a new device like possibly a dCS Rossini, HoloAudio May, or other.

I am finding useful aspects of streaming. Of course others are far more aware. I’m exploring as a novice.

My wife wondered aloud at lunch “What’s Alison Krauss doing these days?” I commented on the obvious, like her turn toward producing, her child care avocation, etc. My wife said “No, I’m curious about her own recording.”

I googled and found a handful of albums over the last decade, the most recent of which is 2021’s “Raising the Roof” (her second collaboration with Robert Plant). The first had been critically acclaimed, so I wondered what this new effort would be like.

Rather than order the CD or vinyl, I found it on Amazon as a 96/24 UHD available for streaming. I’m playing it now. Fast. Convenient. Good quality. Free with my subscription . Instant gratification .

I am also finding that streaming encourages laziness. Vinyl requires that you get off your chair about three times an hour. CDs can be put on repeat, so you don’t have to get up until you’re tired of the program. With streaming, you can pretend you’re Nero Wolf, or Mycroft Holmes … you might never have to leave the armchair until your muscles atrophy.

Incidentally, “Raising the Roof” is sort of old time rock based rather than bluegrass based. Robert Plant’s style is more clear than say Union Station’s. I’ve been enjoying it. But it’s not an audiophile sonic blockbuster. Just good music. Sometimes with a Western swing or old time country influence

[admin]

My wife wondered aloud at lunch “What’s Alison Krauss doing these days?”

I googled and found a handful of albums over the last decade, the most recent of which is 2021’s “Raising the Roof” (her second collaboration with Robert Plant.

Rather than order the CD or vinyl, I found it on Amazon as a 96/24 UHD available for streaming. I’m playing it now. Fast. Convenient. Good quality. Instant gratification .

And I think you really nailed it on the head, as this is the true (and consistent) advantage of streaming. I have a list of artists that are on a "followed" selection. I get reminders for any new releases by those artists in real time (whether entire albums, singles, collaborations, etc). It's a nice feature. I can then immediately listen to those, often the same day they are released. If it is something exceptional, I can always buy the physical copy.

I am also finding that streaming encourages laziness.

Also true. As I've said before. All mediums have positives and negatives.

[AnotherJohnson]

One thing I’ve discovered is that if my HEOS app has been inadvertently set to control one of the other devices, but I’m sitting in front of the ND8006, the ND8006 will try to play the proposed program EVEN IF IT HAS NOT BEEN MERGED WITH THE OTHER DEVICE. It will stutter and act like there is something wrong with the data stream.

If I go back, stop the first device, transfer the control target to the ND8006, and restart, all is well. I think this is a software glitch in the HEOS app exacerbated by my user error of not picking my correct target device.

We discovered this when my wife noticed odd music playing in the kitchen while I was troubleshooting the ND8006.

[Wildcat]

And I think you really nailed it on the head, as this is the true (and consistent) advantage of streaming. I have a list of artists that are on a "followed" selection. I get reminders for any new releases by those artists in real time (whether entire albums, singles, collaborations, etc). It's a nice feature. I can then immediately listen to those, often the same day they are released. If it is something exceptional, I can always buy the physical copy.

I do the same here as well--I've had a Qobuz subscription ever since they were in beta here in the US, and I currently have the Sublime membership level so I can buy high-res downloads at up to 60% off. I figured I would keep it for a year, buy up the backlog of titles I wanted, then go back to a regular subscription. But since they've lowered the cost, I may just stick with it another year. Some labels like Sony Legacy (which has all the Columbia, Epic, RCA, etc. titles) have way more back catalog available than I can afford to buy, even with most of them at 50% off, so I have to be selective.

Currently, prepaying yearly, it's only $15/month for Qobuz Sublime, which is the cost of one album. I figure it has saved me money. I think of all the CDs I bought back in the 1980s and 1990s, and realize I was probably buying a few per month that I never really liked, or only found one track worth listening to. I keep up with my favorite artists in a few ways, and also skim through the Qobuz new releases (as listed by Roon Player) to see if there's anything I'm interested in. It's so much nicer to be able to sample it, even play it a few times, to see if I want to buy it. In many cases, one listen was plenty. What's interesting now is that many labels are releasing the new music in high-res, so it's cheaper to buy the high-res version through the Sublime subscription level than the standard version (CD-quality 16-bit/44.1kHz).

The only reason I thought of dialing it back to a standard subscription is because I thought of getting a "duo" account so both of us in the house can use it. It's not a big deal if we're using Roon Player, but when my better half goes to work or elsewhere, and has access to WiFi, it could come in handy. It would only be another $7.50/month (prepaid yearly) to get a Sublime Duo subscription, though...

[AnotherJohnson]

Cool

[admin]

Quboz is great. I think they found a niche market for those that want to stream, yet still buy albums. They have a great selection of hi-rez audio content. They are not the cheapest service for pure streaming, but I think they are the least expensive overall if you plan to stream and also buy an album or two a month.

Roon integration is also a big bonus. Roon is great but unfortunately they have really only partnered with two streaming services at this time (quboz and tidal). I'm not sure why they have not integrated with other services when their competitors clearly can (BluOS, HEOS, WiiM,...)?

[Wildcat]

I've sent a few music collectors there to buy CD-rate downloads, and they've found it to be a great resource just as a download store, as you don't need a subscription to purchase downloads. When CDs are out of print, or albums are reissued digitally only to the streaming companies, this opens up an affordable means to buy the music.

There are technical reasons behind Roon not being able to support some of the other streamers. This is from one of Roon's developers a couple of years ago:

We’ve had discussions with Amazon Music about an integration but they haven’t agreed to anything. Roon’s streaming service integrations require more than an API, which is what most services provide. We need daily catalog database dumps from partner services, and providing them requires some resources to implement and maintain.

And a similar situation applied to others (Spotify, etc.). In essence, the services can't be integrated to Roon's high standards due to technical limitations from the streaming services. Roon integrates the Qobuz library into a user's own Roon experience. It's one thing to be able to pull instant data from a streaming service (such as a search, or saved bookmarks) and use a system's playback features as a pass-through for the streaming company's data stream, but I think the difficult part for Roon is that they intend the data to be integrated as part of our music library and provide a unified experience that the others don't offer. If the streaming companies could open up their resources to Roon's specifications, though, they could be integrated.

I'm not 100% happy with Roon myself but on the other hand, I've been more happy with Roon than the many others I've tried. So, there's that. Roon also casts to Chromecast Audio (CCA), and I bought a bunch of those CCA pucks at $15 just before Google discontinued them. They're all over the house, mainly for convenience and background listening. I even have one hidden inside an old tubed Grundig radio from 1964 that I use on the radio's PU (pickup, aka phono) input. It's nice to be able to take the Roon library anywhere in the house, so anyone can use it.

[admin]

I figured it was an integration problem. Unfortunately, I don't see other services releasing that level of data to Roon. Access to even the most basic API has been a challenge for most audio makers and only a handful offer integration beyond Spotify/Tidal. Apple probably doesn't care about the Roon user database as it is insignificantly small to their product userbase.

It really is unfortunate as I would probably be a Roon subscriber if they had Amazon music integration. My household is in the Amazon ecosystem (echo's, fire TV, and that stupid Amazon van coming to my house twice a week!). I don't like Tidal due to their support of MQA, and Quboz would be a viable alternative but again, it would mean breaking from the convenience of the amazon system.