CJ's new ART series

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, this new ART 88 looks very promising!

The finesse of CJ's preamplifiers taken to yet another level. From their website, seems like the GAT is still in production, and will form the top of the line within the ET series. In amplifiers it looks like the ART series now has two categories (a) ART push-pull power amps in linear pentode design and (b) ART power amps in Class A power

The Classic series is still being offered but no preamp within this line, since they've discontinued the Classic Preamplifiers, which is a shame. Those Classic preamps were superb vfm, Untouchable! I guess at the entry level preamp stage there's the ET6 to consider.

Last but not least, the minimalist CAV45, which may be quite minimal but certainly no mediocre performance... it's a very special control amplifier in every sense of the term integrated, was my most enjoyable amplifier to date!

Along with just two versions of phono-preamps and one head-phone preamp, I guess that's it!

Comparing the ARC Ref10 to the ART 88 is definitely comparable, however I think the ARC is far more sophisticated due to having separate chassis for its power supplies, whereas CJ's have always been single chassis. Other than the original ART preamp, now that was legendary!

Interesting to see how this new ART 88 unfolds and where it sits as a performance point compared to the GAT, price difference is only a couple grand. JF is really going for the niche market with these new ART Class A offerings, certainly not for the mid-level customer.

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Comparing the ARC Ref10 to the ART 88 is definitely comparable, however I think the ARC is far more sophisticated due to having separate chassis for its power supplies, whereas CJ's have always been single chassis. Other than the original ART preamp, now that was legendary!

I have never heard a REF 10, though I’d jump at the chance if I didn’t have to carry the boxes or accommodate the footprint.

I have a REF 6 and an LS28 SE right now. I love the detailed yet smooth sound. They have been a joy paired with either the LP275Ms or the REF 75 SE.

Regarding sophistication though … the jump is a giant leap for audiophile kind.

The listener interface is the best I’ve ever owned. It is light years ahead in useful listener convenience.

And in the case of phono preamps, there is no comparison between CJ and ARC interfaces. Both are sonically excellent. But you get a LOT more convenience with ARC. I currently own a REF Phono 3, TEA2MAX and TEA1. I recently traded a PH8 (because the dealer would not take CJ in trade).

The REF Phono 3 is my long term keeper. The TEA1 will be the backup. Granted, my TEA1 started life as a Bs1, but it has had the factory cap upgrade and transformers addition. It is no slouch. But the REF Phono 3 is a top performer too. I prefer it.

[MattHooper]

Looks like cool stuff.

Still, when I see a price like $52,000 for the new Art108A amplifier, it does feel a bit depressing. Not simply because I'm not rich and couldn't afford it (well, kind of) but it just seems another statement on this "race for who can charge the most for their gear" seems to be going. At some point prices seem so detached from the likely cost of manufacturing (and advertising etc) for a piece of gear it feels more cynical. "We'll price it this high because people will associate performance with the price, and there will always be some rich enough to buy it."

I know it's a bit of a slippery slope questioning high end prices, but at least that's my own gut reaction.

[AnotherJohnson]

Several of us think that at the highest end, gear is often bought on price … to make a statement.

I never thought I’d say this, but McIntosh looks like a deal these days. $75k goes a long way with McIntosh top of the line. Not as far with CJ.

CJ has said that the bulk of their sales are at the highest end.

[MattHooper]

"CJ has said that the bulk of their sales are at the highest end."

Yeah that seems to be a common trend for many hi-fi companies - easier and often more lucrative to build for a very tiny rich market than larger volume more affordable - depressingly driving prices to absurdities.

[AnotherJohnson]

Affordable is relative of course. But a lot of these companies do pack a lot of value into their second, or even third tier.

In the ARC lineup, I’m one generation behind and one tier down. Wilson at one generation behind and entry level.

It’s expensive enough in this lower stratosphere.

I’ve always thought that once the used price exceeded $2k, it becomes a hard sell. Lots of guys will give $2k for something. Far fewer will write the check for $5k.

[admin]

The higher you go, the thinner the air. Used market sales are typically associated with heavy discounts, otherwise they tend to sit. In my experience, it has been much easier to sell low end gear vs high end. And the percentage loss taken tends to be smaller as well. Your millage may vary, but this has been my experience.

But there are people with serious money and they will still drop five (or six) figures on gear without giving it too much thought. It's penny pinchers like me who will wait months/years to find a bargain on a coveted piece.

[AnotherJohnson]

My LP275Ms were $25k when they were the flagship 15 years ago.

I bought them for $10k, factory updated to KT120s and sealed, with new tubes and a warranty, when they were 10 years old.

Patience can be rewarded.

I’m a sucker for close outs, discontinued, etc. if it used to be the best, it’s likely that it’s still pretty good.

[MattHooper]

I found moving from 6550s to KT120s on my Premier 12s enough of an upgrade to make me happy for quite a while. In fact I actually kept my old 12s and ended up selling a newer pair of upgraded C1 Premier 12s! (That money will go to upgrading my Joseph Audio speakers with the latest drivers).

[Big Dog RJ]

Nice one Matt-H,

Those Prem12's fitted with KT120's will be wonderful upgrade for many more years of fine tunes!

I've being with CJ since the 80's and have put together and sold so many systems for people across the region and in any one system, there's always a CJ component in it. Over the decades I've noticed quite a change in their signature sound. Now with their newer offerings, it's becoming more and more neutral and very much less coloured. By coloured I'm referring to a certain type of tone that I actually prefer on their older gear.

This particular type of tone is probably that golden glow we refer to, and it's there all the way up to the original ART amplifiers and the ACT2 series 2 preamp. Even their last LP series amplifiers had this wonderful tonality that's just captivating and listenable for endless hours.

This is the sole reason why I decided to keep my LP125M's, modded to the full SE version, fitted with newer parts and adjusted at a higher Class A bias. After absolutely loving the ACT2 S2 I asked the Chief what next... their advice was an ACT2 series 3 if ever one existed, and so that's exactly what they did with my CT5.

So now, I'm really enjoying that fine tonality with a touch of that golden glow that CJ was known for, and the capability of the monoblocks to fully grip the CLX's for that LF detail and extension, which it delivers supremely well!

So for me, the latest is not the greatest. I prefer a certain tone that has captivated my attention fully over those decades, so why would I want to change that. It's very important that I hear that particular type of tonality and once it starts to diminish towards a very squeaky clean, and neutral sound, I tend to walk away...

Hence, why I haven't had any of the higher end versions of the ET7's or the GATS2, I'm slightly put off by that extremely clean sound. They're superb preamps in every sense of the term "pre-amplifier." However, my preference is towards the ACT2 presentation and that's just a personal preference.

With regards to the ART series amplifiers, from the ART300's to the ART150, these are capable of reproducing the live event! They can play really loud without any breakup or stress whatsoever, as long as the speakers are upto the task. At this level, it's certainly quite a marvellous combination to experience and yes, it does cost a fortune!

The one particular ART series amplifiers that have come to the attention of my long term trusted dealer buddies based overseas, the ART108A, have been truly impressed by these monoblocks. They say that these are truly unique in every way, and pack a serious wallop with finesse, even more so than compared to the other ART series amps, which have a higher Class AB power output, so it's a different topology.

The ART108A's are the ones that have captured their attention but this one costs a damn fortune! Just when I was about to close and did the currency conversion at the bank, about two weeks ago, that 50grand USD price tag converted to AUD was 80grand alone! Then I need to add shipping & handling, plus CIF & customs duties... forget it! The manager quoted something like 90grand plus... and this is without the importers margin... so we're looking at pretty much 100grand for a pair of 160w Class A monoblocks. He seriously looked me in the eye, and asked are they worth it? I said no, and so we cancelled the whole transaction and that's all she wrote!

When I was asked that question, I would usually pause a little but this time I didn't. Knowing that the custom sound I've already created with my existing gear is mighty fine, so why bother! And that's exactly what the wifey said as well.
After all, place down a 100grand for these amplifiers, and after about few years comes along another pair of monoblocks superior to these, another 200grand would do it, and the vicious cycle continues...

No thanks mate, I'm bloody happy as is!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!

Will most probably get a chance to audition the ART108A's either in Feb or June next year. Woof!
RJ

[MattHooper]

RJ,

I'm with you on the old school CJ sound.

But then again...I haven't heard the latest stuff.

I was compelled to look in to "upgrading" from the Premier 12s when I borrowed a friend's Bryston 4B3 solid state amp. A/Bing the amps I unequivocally preferred the CJ tube amps, as I always do in these comparisons. But the Bryston DID show me some things my CJs didn't quite - a bit more neutrality and nuance along with more grip. I wondered if, after decades of the same CJ sound, I might be ready to edge towards something more neutral. I figured the safest move, since I love the prem 12 sound so much, was to first try upgraded prem 12s (Teflon caps). As I've said, I bought those as an extra pair to compare to my old 12s. I DID get some of the things I wanted - a blacker background, still some CJ classic "glow" (though not as much) and better grip on the bass. Though for whatever reason my old CJs sounded a bit more punchy and powerful.

I finally sold those C12s as I needed the money and was ok with my old ones once I had put KT120s in them. I also, as I've told you, bought a Benchmark LA4 solid state preamp. It too got me a bit more neutrality and transparency vs my CJ Premier 16LS2 tube preamp. So I did sort of upgrade my sound in the end.

However, after months with the LA4 in my system I thought maybe I'd weaned myself from the 16LS tube preamp sound, but when I put the CJ back in it was magic. It was a little step back in transparency and smoothness, but a step forward in the texture, body and solidity of the sound, with more of the CJ golden glow. The LA4 is so stunningly low in distortion, and it's volume pots about as transparent as you can get, I actually have had the CJ preamp running through the LA4 so I can with a click of the remote switch between the LA4 as preamp, or the CJ as preamp. I do it all the time and it's just fascinating to hear the difference. With the LA4 it's like I can hear down in to the micro level of detail, and my premier 12s keep that luscious tube sound, so it's a nice combo. But when I click over to the CJ preamp, as I said, the sound just becomes more solid, airy, texturally things pop out of the mix in to the room. It just sounds more life-like in many ways. It's a good lesson in "transparency isn't everything."

[AnotherJohnson]

Comparison often breeds dissatisfaction.

It is definitely cheaper and easier to like what you’ve got.

The price point where the reproduction really satisfies as close to real is a lot lower than the price point where you begin chasing and catching the last bits.

That vintage CJ system my music industry friend was asking me about because it had impressed him so much (if I remember correctly) was based on a 1980’s level Linn LP12 w/ Ittok series 1, probably an Ortofon HOMC cartridge, feeding an MF2200, driving Thiel CS2.0s. The room was nice, with lots of space for the Thiels to work their magic. And the music was not complex … it was Barney Kessel Easy Like on vinyl. He still shakes his head and mumbles that it was like Barney was right there in the room. I think I had about $3500 in that system.

RJ and I are on different regions of the quest space. He has strong likes about particular sound and presentation, and has tuned his system to the point where it is really delivering the goods. He is well focused.

I tend to meander around, with an affinity for virtually anything that sounds believable to me. I am a sucker for detail and for believable tone. I am sucked in by excellent sound stage and by clear air around each instrument or voice. More and more I’m using background vocals as a basis for comparisons.

More and more I’m using what I had believed to be lousy recordings to evaluate things. If something that used to sound lousy now sounds good, or at least better, I’m judging that to be a plus.

I have to admit, I tend to like newer models just because they often sound clearer and more neutral.

I’ve always been blessed to have a hand in live presentations, and my audio memory, while not perfect, is a good guide for whether or not something is believable.

Nevertheless, like Thomas Edison’s audiences who could be fooled into thinking that an orchestra was playing instead of his cylinders, I’ve found that what’s really believable changes as you advance your ability to listen.

In any event, there’s a lot of pleasure to be had from ANY home audio system. We all know that’s true.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes very true maties.

In fact, if I were to plan another "upgrade" then of course I'd be looking at either the GAT and any of the ART amplifiers. In fact, just when the ART27A was introduced, there was a chap who badly wanted my entire CLX plus CJ monoblocks + preamp system. He's one of those collectors and would pay virtually any money to get hold of something that was legendary and obsolete. He's the same chap who bought my ACT2 S2 and nearly all my Maggie's & Quads. His room is like a candy store full of hifi gear, you can't even walk a few feet without bumping into something. Pretty amazing!

At that point, I tried out the ART27A with the GAT driving the Avant Garde Duo XD's, which were on my short list of speakers when I finalised back in Sept 2018. It was an outstanding combination, without a doubt.
However, after a while there was this feeling of listener fatigue, and that I simply cannot enjoy. The AG Duo's are nice for the short term, great for demo tracks, movie soundtracks and serious level dynamics, a lot of kaboom factor, very jumpy shake the room stuff... Definitely not for late night sessions, easy flowing tunes and a full 3D depth in soundstage, the AG horns don't do that. And so, I passed on the offer. The ART27A and that same GATS2 went on to another customer. Not sure what speakers he was using but I tried to reach out to him on this forum, he never responded.

So, if another serious upgrade is required then yes, perhaps the ART108A's and the GATS2 or that new Art88 preamp would be a definite upgrade overall. But this is the biggest concern for me, these upgrades aren't anything like 10 or 15yrs ago, where pricing was manageable if you could dish out the extra funds. This time round, we're talking about 150grand just for a pre and power amp!!! That's just two bloody components! Not even an entire system..!. and this doesn't sit well with me. It's not just the exhorbitant spend but also the fact that my fellow countrymen are really suffering back in hometown, and here I am wondering if I should upgrade monoblocks... seriously? I have issues... so are these ego, insecurity issues or just plain ignorance

Therefore, regardless of the performance, which I'm sure these will perform in every way imaginable, I simply cannot justify that sort of spend. If it was around 50grand for both pre & power then that's a whole different perspective...

When I discussed these things with my bank manager, he thought I was dealing in real estate... only later realised this was hifi gear... he thought I was completely looney!

And of course, based on the type of custom sound that I've created over the years to complete the system as a whole, with the centre focus being the CLX's and what it can do with well recorded acoustic music, it just sounds right! So why on earth should I bother to change all of this again. Doesn't make sense, unless I was looking into a secondary system or a complete overhaul, including changing the speakers. And again that crazy stupid pricing... it kills me.

So, definitely not going there. However, just for a life time experience, I will be auditioning the ART108A's with either the Alsyvox or CLX's in Feb. I've set the dates, so we're ready for take off! Until then maties...

Cheers to all, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

[MattHooper]

Comparison often breeds dissatisfaction.

Ha, tell me about it!

I have a tendency to hoard various types of audio gear, speakers especially, because one will always do something better than another.
At times this can be just the ticket for being off the upgrade mill, because if I'm tired of one sound I can just swap in another.

On the other hand, sometimes the comparison breeds a bit of discontent. For instance, I have an old pair of Thiel 02 speakers - cheap 2-way box speakers Thiel made in the early 80's. For me they have a magical sound, some qualities that I have been looking for in other speakers, for years.
They don't have the ultimate refinement of any of the expensive speakers I've owned over the years, but if I dare put them in my system for a while I'll go "Damn, I wish my expensive speakers did THAT!" (The 02s have this sense of density and palpability and life-force that's hard to find elsewhere).

At that point, I tried out the ART27A with the GAT driving the Avant Garde Duo XD's, which were on my short list of speakers when I finalised back in Sept 2018. It was an outstanding combination, without a doubt.
However, after a while there was this feeling of listener fatigue, and that I simply cannot enjoy. The AG Duo's are nice for the short term, great for demo tracks, movie soundtracks and serious level dynamics, a lot of kaboom factor, very jumpy shake the room stuff... Definitely not for late night sessions, easy flowing tunes and a full 3D depth in soundstage, the AG horns don't do that. And so, I passed on the offer. The ART27A and that same GATS2 went on to another customer. Not sure what speakers he was using but I tried to reach out to him on this forum, he never responded.

Woof! RJ

That's the the thing: I'm not sure if a more neutral amp or system is out there that I would, in fact, enjoy better.

Whenever i put solid state amps in to my system I get fatigued easily and just want to stop listening after a while. There is something about how hard and spikey the sound is relative to my tube amps. The more a modern tube amp edges toward that type of neutrality, I may go "wow" in some respects, but find myself being less comfortable, relaxed and engaged. With the Premier 12s (and my CJ tube preamp) the sound is vivid, with sparkling detail, massive soundstaging, and tons of guts, so while listening I don't feel like I'm missing anything in particular. Which is why they've been a linchpin in my system for 20 years.

[AnotherJohnson]

That vintage CJ system my music industry friend was asking me about because it had impressed him so much (if I remember correctly) was based on a 1980’s level Linn LP12 w/ Ittok series 1, probably an Ortofon HOMC cartridge, feeding an MF2200, driving Thiel CS2.0s. The room was nice, with lots of space for the Thiels to work their magic. And the music was not complex … it was Barney Kessel Easy Like on vinyl. He still shakes his head and mumbles that it was like Barney was right there in the room. I think I had about $3500 in that system.

Somehow I left out the PV preamp. It was either a PV8 with cap upgrade, or a PV11.

[AnotherJohnson]

On the other hand, sometimes the comparison breeds a bit of discontent. For instance, I have an old pair of Thiel 02 speakers - cheap 2-way box speakers Thiel made in the early 80's. For me they have a magical sound, some qualities that I have been looking for in other speakers, for years.
They don't have the ultimate refinement of any of the expensive speakers I've owned over the years, but if I dare put them in my system for a while I'll go "Damn, I wish my expensive speakers did THAT!" (The 02s have this sense of density and palpability and life-force that's hard to find elsewhere).

Jim Thiel was focused on time alignment. CS stood for Coherent Source IIRC.

He was a master of designing speakers that punched far above their price point.

When I lost my CS2.0s to that transient, I went on a long, unsatisfying search to replace them. I moved the ML Theos to that system, and ended up loving the modestly priced Revel F208s for the main system. That’s what started my love affair with Revel. The Revel margins are so large, the actual selling prices are sometimes possible to negotiate down to half msrp.

[AnotherJohnson]

It is harder to get Revel deals now than it used to be. Their decision to build in Indonesia has hamstrung their ability to deliver a steady stream of products.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I agree with RJ on the pricing.

I would not buy new ART series unless a very good deal could be worked. Sometimes JF has been known to be a generous trader, especially on current models.

But I am so pleased with the 47 pound ARC REF 75 SE and the incredibly versatile REF 6, that my curiosity about the new ARTs just isn’t enough to overcome my satisfaction with the current system.

[MattHooper]

Jim Thiel was focused on time alignment. CS stood for Coherent Source IIRC.

He was a master of designing speakers that punched far above their price point.

Agreed.

As it happens, though, those old Thiel 02s were just a standard 2 way, designed before Thiel switched over to fully time/phase coherent designs.
So, funny thing that I can actually prefer certain aspects even to their last flagship speaker!

I like my Thiel 2.7s so much I bought back up drivers just in case.

[AnotherJohnson]

Jim Thiel was focused on time alignment. CS stood for Coherent Source IIRC.

He was a master of designing speakers that punched far above their price point.

Agreed.

As it happens, though, those old Thiel 02s were just a standard 2 way, designed before Thiel switched over to fully time/phase coherent designs.
So, funny thing that I can actually prefer certain aspects even to their last flagship speaker!

I like my Thiel 2.7s so much I bought back up drivers just in case.

I have drivers and crossovers on the shelf for the CS2.0. They’ll go to the dump in the final stages of moving this month.

Yes, I recognized that yours were pre CS.

He picked great Scandinavian drivers. One of my Norwegian cousins was in that industry designing drivers.