Regenerator and my CJ monoblocks

[AnotherJohnson]

In all honesty, I think the experimentation with the LP275M's is pretty much complete. I don't really think there is anything else at this point. As you mentioned, the solution is to have them connected to a common power strip. There is only so much you can do with ground loops. I've had them in my system before as well, and you do the best you can, often finding a solution, but deviating from the solution will bring back the problem.

This doesn't detract from the LP275M's in my opinion, it's just a inherent property to that particular amp. Different components have their requirements, limitations, positive qualities, etc...

The amps are great if you get by this quirk.

Believe me, I was not happy in 2018 when I first installed them. My power was two dedicated 20 amp circuits on the same ground bar of the breaker box. This set up had been feeding big Krell class A amps, dead quietly, for a couple of years with no power drama.

I installed the LP275Ms, and was immediately confronted with hum on both sides.

After a multi day kabuki dance to find the issue, I called CJ.

Without any head scratching, the explanation that the whole organic system behaves as one entity and that if all the devices weren’t on the same plug, the whole thing would be one giant antenna.

I knew this advice should not be necessary, but took it anyway just to be able to say I did in future discussions.

Lo and behold, it solved the problem.

Problem repeated in three other buildings over the intervening years. Solution always works.

CJ says PLCs and Regenerators cause more problems.

I am happily listening to music … that is as it should be. The next wrangling I do with the LP275Ms will be to box them up.

[admin]

Roberto, you are a hopeless romantic. I only run these with the OEM power cords.

I’m sticking with JF’s analysis. If it is his expected behavior, you can spend hours in the rat hole trying to prove him wrong. Entropy generation …

Roberto is not giving up!

[AnotherJohnson]

The Frederick Lejonklau test … listen from the next room.

Even on relatively low volume, it is still possible to fully understand the German choral music from the next room.

This truly is more clarity and detail than I would have thought possible. I wonder what the REF 6SE or REF 10 … or ART 88 would be like in this installation.

[roberto]

OK, I give up! Did try? I hate noise, specially if it is hum. My system is dead silence. There is no hum or hiss or any kind of noise or whatsoever...so having those magnificent power amps, I can't think that they have that problem. Well, things happens...S happens too.

I am very happy that at last you are enjoying the music as it should.

How the recording did? Did you like it?

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

Update on my monoblocks.

I sold them with full disclosure to a skilled aficionado who had the knowledge AND the physical strength to work on them. In spite of all the assertions that my ground loop issues were attributable to the “antenna effect,” the persistent new owner traced down two issues related to faulty soldering, including a cold solder joint, in the left amp.

I suspect that this has been in play since my 2018 purchase, but the history of daily phone calls from customers asking about hum issues dulled the interest at CJ regarding digging into them. I’m still not clear on why the “plug everything into one power strip” idea worked, but it did. It seemed as though a perfect ground plane match was the only solution short of this strip down as has been applied.

So if there is good news to report, it is that two specific issues were found on serious examination, and they have finally been resolved. I don’t know if this would allow them to run on a PS Audio P20 now. But the underlying persistent ground loop issue is reportedly resolved and the single power strip solution is back in the bin where I think it honestly belongs. These were/are great amps. It was probably a legitimate warranty issue in 2018, but I gladly would have paid to resolve it in 2022.

[AnotherJohnson]

Another update. The V2 socket in the left amp was also bad. Another possible holdover defect that was probably a problem in 2018. That’s the amp that had a short lived 6922 that failed more frequently than expected.

The further assessment, take it as good or bad … even with these two solder defects and tube socket repaired, there was still some low level hum present that could be heard through efficient speakers.

I suggested the single power strip solution one more time, and sure enough this last bit of noise was put to rest when the system was put on the same power strip.

It is not supposed to be this hard. This suggests that they probably still wouldn’t be compatible with the PS Audio regenerator.

The good news is that, just like at my house, the amps do
sound great. They beat the LP140s they may end up replacing.

There is something in the way the big CJ monoblocks handle ground that makes them especially sensitive to even minuscule ground differences between them.

That’s why the go to solution is to put them on the common power strip. But this masked other defects that should have been dealt with on warranty, or at least warranted a full bench inspection.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yep, without a doubt!

I'm very glad the new owner was able to fix those issues. Seems like he knows what he's doing and this goes a long way...!

Similarly, when my amps came back from the importer-tech, there were all sorts of funny things going on... so I sent them to my other local tech and as usual he waved his magic wand and they've never had any issues since!

Now, after the mods were done and mind you over a period of two years, that's how meticulous he is, I can proudly say these vintage LP series amplifiers perform even better than most of CJ's current offerings! That's why they're truly unique and I'll never sell them. They're priceless given the way they sound, it's a truly unique custom sound.

With CJ's newest versions, it's pretty much the same circuits just slightly modded in critical areas and a premium is charged. Who says a highly knowledgeable and skilled techie can't do the exact same job! I happen to know of one who can.

Cheers maties and keep those tubes glowing!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Here is a pic of the P20’s typical performance.

IMG_0689.jpeg (2.84 MiB) Viewed 33315 times

The incoming TVA power has about 3% distortion.

The load my system is drawing is about 1 kW.

The distortion of the power out of the P20 is close to 0%.

[AnotherJohnson]

I ran across this review of the LP125 monoblocks the other day.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/con ... -amplifier

It was written at the time when Bill and Lew were still active owners.

They (Stereophile) eventually put them in their Class A category.

But if you read the review you will see that the review pair exhibited the same ground loop issues that I had to wrestle with every time I moved my flagship LP275Ms.

Regenerator, cheater plugs, ground plane difference between the amps, etc. Even the driver tube failure(s).

So my problems were not isolated to my samples.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes good one!

I've read this particular review several times, and have also recommended those particular speakers to a few hifi enthusiasts getting into the highend for the first time. I've auditioned those very speakers and they're very good. Excellent presentation with CJ's tube gear.

The ground loop and tube quirks are typical... but once sorted out, everything is tickety boo. I would think there should be a definite solution and improvement if CJ designed gear perhaps with XLR connections or added certain features that may fix such problems. However, they chose the simpler approach and I guess it's upto the owners to deal with those things. As in the majority of installations I've done to date with CJ gear, I've had no problems other than one incident of hum and of course noisy tubes. So I would say maybe about 95% all good so far. However, that tiny 5% is annoying and you'd think, especially at this level these kinds of things should really not happen. Yet it still does... and tunes go on.

Not sure what kind of miracle or magic I've done over here with my gear. I've managed at best to keep the installation as simple as possible using just one dedicated AC mains and power distribution system only for the audio gear, nothing else, and it's absolutely amazing!
Every person who's visited and listened, has commented on how very very quiet it is. Compared to the vast all tube based systems they've come across. They never expected this level of transparency and quietness.

Oh well, I'm not sure about that perfect combination of gear or whether there's such a thing as "perfect" but I have come across other systems with very lofty gear that were buzzing all over the joint! Either the horn speakers were way too high in efficiency causing the extra hum from large SS designs or even large tube amps. Then there was cartridge to preamp mismatch that caused plenty of other issues. Also have heard weird noises from streaming devices and Ethernet cables... that was really weird. In the majority of those set-ups, they don't seem to bother although they're well aware of it. Only when they do visit and realise the pin-drop silence, do they realise how noisy their rig is! It's definitely an interesting phenomenon.

As stated in the article though, once sorted out, it just sounds right! Indeed it does.
Woof! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

The point is that no one should pay this much money for gear that enters your system as a problem to be solved.

At this price level the gear should be drama free. There is something inherently bad about amp designs that require this much attention … especially since there are competitive options from other companies that give great performance out of the box.

It can just sound right, or even better than right, without the drama with another choice.

[AnotherJohnson]

The question of the day is “Have CJ fixed these issues in the ART series?”

If you plug a pair of 108As into separate duplex outlets will you have the same ground problems?

Wanting to try this, I’ve approached a handful of dealers within a day’s drive. The answer to the question “Can you demo the 88/108A combination on comparable speakers” is “No, but they can do it at headquarter in Fairfax.”

[AnotherJohnson]

It turns out there is a dealer in Potomac, MD (literally 666 miles from me) who would be willing to drive the 88/108A to my house for an in home demo. The 666 bodes ill for this idea.

Nevertheless, it was offered. I would not impose on such a dealer. And, of course, after the sale dealer support would be problematic. I don’t think my interest is sufficient to warrant such an imposition. That’s a multi day travel commitment, and in my view unfair to ask.

[admin]

It turns out there is a dealer in Potomac, MD (literally 666 miles from me) who would be willing to drive the 88/108A to my house for an in home demo. The 666 bodes ill for this idea.

Nevertheless, it was offered. I would not impose on such a dealer. And, of course, after the sale dealer support would be problematic. I don’t think my interest is sufficient to warrant such an imposition. That’s a multi day travel commitment, and in my view unfair to ask.

I have to give credit to the dealer, that is a very generous offer. But unless I was 95% sure I was going to buy the unit, I would not personally feel ok with asking for such a service.

[AnotherJohnson]

There must be a 666 level profit to warrant a 1332 mile round trip to do a demo.

[audiobill]

Think you should consider stepping up.....

Audio Classics, in Vestal NY is a 2 hr drive and 15 minutes to Mc central.

But, Hey, German is German lol....

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I understand the point.

Not really sure if JF has fixed these quirks with the ART series... could be but probably not. All I can confirm is that during those demos I attended, there weren't any issues of grounding, hums, buzzes... nothing. Other than my mates Koetsu cart wasn't tuned up properly on one particular TT that I was very keen to audition. So, instead he used the Michell Orb. The other TT was the legendary Dr. F - WP, that thing looked like a mother ship! Outstanding! That's actually an understatement... no other word for it.

Then again, this chaps wiring and grounding rig alone most probably costs a bloody fortune, so I'm sure he wouldn't tolerate any such unwanted noises... just like me! I remember back in home town cmb, I used various levels of AC power conditioning. The AC current ratings and reliability in cmb are bloody hopeless. All of a sudden, power cuts happen! Would go out for hours, sometimes upto 12hrs a day. When I was there, it happened twice! Absolute nightmare for any audio gear. It's been like that since I was born. They could never provide stable and reliable AC power. In Aus it's a consumer right and if they muck around, they could get sued big time!

Then at our little apartment (shoebox) in Melb, the AC was steady, much better but there were other issues on that circuit. It was shared with the rest of household appliances. Only after I installed a dedicated line, things were much better. After that, only when we built our new home, I was able to custom order exactly what was required for the AC mains outlets and distribution. So now it's pin Drop silence... even whiles I'm typing this message. Zero noise. So that's definitely a good thing!

However, that's the thing, as correctly pointed out by AJ, how many owners would go the extra effort with AC mains installations... and at this level you'd think they'd get it right.
Well, hopefully in future designs JF will address these issues and offer better gear. One thing for sure is, whatever statement product he introduces, limited edition or not, it's sold out! So he must be doing something right.

Cheers to CJ!
Woof! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

However, that's the thing, as correctly pointed out by AJ, how many owners would go the extra effort with AC mains installations... and at this level you'd think they'd get it right.
Well, hopefully in future designs JF will address these issues and offer better gear. One thing for sure is, whatever statement product he introduces, limited edition or not, it's sold out! So he must be doing something right.

Cheers to CJ!
Woof! RJ

I’ve gotta give JF an A for persistently working the problem of an audition.

We left it that, were I to get to Fairfax, an audition would be welcomed.

As for “getting it right,” I would put up with some annoyance if it led to the best. But right now, where I’m sitting, there are other things available that sound better to my ears.

Your ears. Your system. My ears. My system.

[AnotherJohnson]

Think you should consider stepping up.....

Audio Classics, in Vestal NY is a 2 hr drive and 15 minutes to Mc central.

But, Hey, German is German lol....

Vestal is farther than Potomac. By a lot.

But I don’t need to go there. We have Tom Manley’s operation maybe 2 hours away.

Tom and I were serious tube McIntosh traders back in the day. He continued as a lifelong passion.

To my ears vintage McIntosh isnt competitive with vintage CJ. And vintage CJ isn’t competitive with modern CJ.

And modern CJ isn’t competitive with many choices, but it does beat modern McIntosh on sound, but in no other areas.

My ARC and Burmester dealer is a HUGE McIntosh dealer, so I get to hear their gear in a proper setting. My local McIntosh dealer genuinely sucks.

McIntosh might be an end game when I get too tired of the quest. But right now it’s still a compromise … holds value well against cocktail party background music performance.

YMMV. Your ears, your system.

[AnotherJohnson]

Think you should consider stepping up.....

Audio Classics, in Vestal NY is a 2 hr drive and 15 minutes to Mc central.

But, Hey, German is German lol....

You’re the guy with the Porsche.

The blue meters have dulled your reading comprehension.

It happens as a normal part of aging. Eventually McIntosh is the best choice for nearly everyone. Once your hearing goes, and you need the blue nightlights, might as well succumb to the Magic.