Regenerator and my CJ monoblocks

[admin]

My previous CJ Evolution 2000 used to have a major draw with powerup. It would often dim the lights in the house when it kicked in. Perhaps this is just a characteristic of the bigger CJ amps?

At the end of the day, if they sound good then they probably don't need power management.

[roberto]

I envy you AJ, I can't stand any kind of hum or noise. I was going to suggest to you to try the strip to the high power connector at the PS. That might work.

I'm going to tell a recent history that I was envolved. My dear friend Mr. Ramirez called me because he had a problem with his system. He already called some friends with high experience with audio gear and no one knew. He has the JMLabs Utopia with ARC gear. The sound is impressive. Well to short the history, the problem was with the second violins in the first movement of Mahler 2d symphony. At certain passages just the second violins were kind of dirty, but all other remain musical instruments were ok. I hit the jackpot.

What you guys think that where was the problem?

[AnotherJohnson]

You can imagine my relief last night when I plugged it all into the Niagara 1200 and everything was perfect on the first power up.

It gave me a huge boost, knowing that my beloved LP275Ms had not failed in some way.

[AnotherJohnson]

What you guys think that where was the problem?

I have no idea. What was it? That’s a very localized issue.

[admin]

It gave me a huge boost, knowing that my beloved LP275Ms had not failed in some way.

At the end of the day, this is all that matters.

What you guys think that where was the problem?

Not sure. That is very specific. Maybe some resonance in the room at that frequency?

[AnotherJohnson]

At the end of the day, if they sound good then they probably don't need power management.

I would still need the power strip to eliminate the inherent ground loop. YMMV

[AnotherJohnson]

On the localized problem issue, in my situations it has always been such passages that made good test tracks.

The Paula Cole Tiger bass, for example. These kinds of things have helped me choose between speakers, amps, interconnects, and recently even the power conditioning.

What solved his problem?

[roberto]

repositioning and tightening one speaker spade at the binding post of the left channel. Like magic, The problem went away...I was lucky to find that. Usually when there is a problem similar, I start with taking apart all the system and do all the connections again.

Can you believe it? I really hit the jackpot...not because I have knowledge, but yes, I do not mind to do all the connections again.

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

repositioning and tightening one speaker spade at the binding post of the left channel. Like magic, The problem went away...I was lucky to find that. Usually when there is a problem similar, I start with taking apart all the system and do all the connections again.

Can you believe it? I really hit the jackpot...not because I have knowledge, but yes, I do not mind to do all the connections again.

Happy listening!

It is critical. It is surprising that the effect was so localized. Congratulations !!! Good fortune is often the product of good work.

[roberto]

The biding post of this model of Focal JMLabs is a kind of fishy. The metal also has a kind of isolation, and the spade was almost touching the metal. Once it was on the right position, voila! the distortion went away.

[AnotherJohnson]

Mulling over the LP275M installation requirements, I think I’m finally “getting it.”

There are two ground planes that need to be merged. There is no “close enough.” They have to be exactly equal.

These are the power source ground AND the ground from the preamp’s shielded interconnect.

If the power plug grounds on both the amp and preamp are on the same ground bar in the breaker box, they should be the same. But because of wiring differences in the house, there are “usually ignorable” differences. Tiny tiny tiny differences. The LP275M is a VERY sensitive design. It is rated at either .5 V or .7 V to full power (depending on what version of the literature you’re reading). Another amp with sensitivity of 2 V to full power wouldn’t be nearly as sensitive to micro or millivolt differences on the ground plane.

So … that’s really what’s got to going on here. Until you plug everything into a power strip, putting everything into the house wiring at the same point, you can’t be sure of perfect superposition of the amp and preamp ground planes. Since both present themselves to the amp via its power cord from the wall, and via the interconnect shield from the preamp, you’ve got to follow the power strip protocol.

Up the chain, preamp to source, the same issue could be in play, so the safest most reliable solution is the common power strip.

I could go into a spiel on the benefits of a true balanced design here (not the cheap op amp assumption about balanced design that is made to defend SE), but I won’t.

The LP275Ms are awesome amps … but they require attention to installation detail that is contrary to many other high end amps. I was stunned by the idea that rather than use one dedicated 20 amp circuit on a common ground bar for each amp, that it would be better to stick everything onto a power strip and plug it into one outlet.

This may be why such an easily discernible difference occurred when I got rid of the power strip and installed the Niagara 1200 and Monsoon power cord.

But for whatever reason, the active P12 “Regenerator” presents as something more complicated than a passive power strip … and, of course, it is.

[Joe Appierto]

Let me ask you something, then, that'll show how little I know from the technical end of what you're discussing and/or is already something you've dismissed because you know it wouldn't work.

What if you plugged everything into the one power strip and then plugged the power strip into the P12?

[AnotherJohnson]

Let me ask you something, then, that'll show how little I know from the technical end of what you're discussing and/or is already something you've dismissed because you know it wouldn't work.

What if you plugged everything into the one power strip and then plugged the power strip into the P12?

I’ve proposed to do that in a post above just for fun (and if I get around to it).

Here’s an experiment I might try.

Plug all the components with the LP275Ms into a power strip (not a conditioner since PS Audio recommends against that).

Plug the power strip into the high current section of the P12.

I predict that that might kill the hum … but as Roberto points out, it may be too much for the P12. I will look for the power strip I was using in the CJ system before I got the Niagara 1200.

The Power Plant high current plugs are “soft start.” Paul McGowan told one questioner that there was nothing he could do for amps that had a very large start up current draw. A dedicated 20 amp circuit running the 20 amp mode of the P20 is the best presently possible in the Power Plant series.

It may be that our concern that the P12 can’t handle all that stuff will come into play. The P12 is not creating the ground loop. It is reacting to it. The power strip protocol will kill the ground loop, so the next level issue is whether the P20 on a 20 amp outlet would be needed to run the power strip.

Honestly, the more devices, the more like Rube Goldberg. If I keep the LP275Ms, I will power them via the Monsoon/Niagara set up. I will keep the ARC gear, and it will stay on the P12.

[admin]

What if you plugged everything into the one power strip and then plugged the power strip into the P12?

This is a good question. Would you still get the benefit of voltage/power regulation of the P12 but without the grounding problems? Or is the power draw too much for the P12?

EDIT: Looks like you answered before I hit "submit."

[Joe Appierto]

Got it, thanks. Sometimes it takes a couple of times for me for it to sink in.

[AnotherJohnson]

Based on what I’ve learned during the LP275Ms move, this review of the P20 rings as likely to be pretty true.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps- ... egenerator

It gives perspectives from two reviewers. Both positive in my reading.

It alludes to some of the house wiring issues that JF asserts too. And it suggests based on extrapolation that if you want to run monster monoblocks, you’ll need the P20 on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. If you don’t put the P20 on a 20 amp circuit it is limited to the same 1200 VA output as the P12. So pony up to the (ground) bar and have the electrician, or someone like him, add a dedicated 20 amp circuit to your listening room. Then the P20’s capacity rises to 2000 VA continuous and 3600 VA for short bursts.

One puzzler for me was that PS Audio has said in other places that they really put a lot of effort into establishing a common ground plane for all of the outlets on the back of the P20. I wonder if less effort is put into this aspect of the P12.

In any event, the ARC system is up tonight and the P12 magic is still present.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve ordered a P20 for a no risk 30 day trial. We’ll see how it goes.

[Joe Appierto]

PS Audio is supposed to have pretty good trade-in discounts. If the P20 can pull off the sound improvements of the P12 without the grounding issues...

[AnotherJohnson]

PS Audio is supposed to have pretty good trade-in discounts. If the P20 can pull off the sound improvements of the P12 without the grounding issues...

The P20 offers a lot of “upgrades” over the P12.

It is capable of finer output voltage set points (.1 vs.5 V).

It is supposed to have the best possible internal circuit to circuit grounding.

They offer generous trades, and at some points during the year, they discount heavily, but suspend the trade policy.

They offer full original retail on your trade up to some set amount. $4k on the $10k P20, for example. If the original retail of the trade is worth more, they bank the difference for you to use on a future purchase.

They credit you for the trade sight unseen based on your honest description that it is fully working and not ratty.

You pay the difference. They ship it to you for free. You have 30 days to evaluate it. If you don’t like it, send it back. If you do like it, send them your trade before the 30 day trial is up.

Some who have upgraded from lower units to the P20 say it is audibly better.

There’s no place to go from the P20. It weighs 96 pounds and has handles on the front and back. It has 16 outlets, four of which are high current.

The display is 7”, so easier to read from a distance. I had originally thought to trade the P12 on it, but chose something else when I realized that the P12 could be tried in the HT system.

For now, I’m hoping the P20 will accommodate the LP275Ms.

If it does not, then the LP275Ms will be offered with a Niagara 1200 and a Monsoon power cord as a package deal for someone. I would really like to try the LP275Ms on the Sasha DAWs when they arrive, and to compare them legitimately to the REF 75SE. But we’ll have to wait and see.

[Joe Appierto]

I've seen a lot of positive comments on the P20 over at the PS Audio forum. Your description succinctly highlights its advantages and I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed that it plays nicely with your LP275M amps.