Premier 5s Inbound!

[admin]

Sounds like everything has been made right.

So Homer, I have to ask. How did you accumulate all these CJ units? I don't think I have ever heard anybody own so many pieces from one manufacturer at the same time. Is there a story here, if so, I would love to hear it?

[Homerdking]

I have two residences. I used one of each in each of those residences.
Or I bi amp.
Or vertical bi amp.
Or I find a deal that’s too good to pass.
Or I’ve been weak to resist CJ gear.

[Homerdking]

Also perhaps more than anything I’ve never had the stomach to navigate the selling of gear. Just not of my interest.
I’ve used it a while and switch things up.
At that point I would set it in a corner of my living room and cover it with a towel for protection. I’m a user and listener.
Not a audio sales kind of guy. I’m too private of an individual
and I didn’t have the computer skills to deal with it easily.
As well I’ve had attachment to each of the pieces so it’s not been a easy parting of ways with my collection.
Though I’m more comfortable with all of that at this moment and it’s past time I part with what I know I won’t be using again any time soon.

[AnotherJohnson]

I have two residences. I used one of each in each of those residences.
Or I bi amp.
Or vertical bi amp.
Or I find a deal that’s too good to pass.
Or I’ve been weak to resist CJ gear.

We have a lot in common, except that I do sell things as I go most of the time.

[AnotherJohnson]

My wife lives in fear that she will have to sell my stuff. I console her by suggesting that she might be lucky and pass first.

[Boxcar]

Greetings CJO brethren!

First off, welcome Homer! You're knowledge of CJ gear is certainly a huge asset to this forum, and I hope that you become a regular contributor.

As far as the rest goes: I'm not interested in any further discussion. At this point, it's a waste of everyone's time.

I picked up the P5s today from my local Old Dominion shipping terminal. 31 days after sending payment. They were in great shape. Thanks, Homer, for taking care of them so well!

I took them home, unboxed them, and installed the tubes. Homer did a great job of labeling each tube to make sure it was installed in it's correct location. To check the output tube bias, I hooked up the P5s to the woofer of my MLs as the woofer is a lot cheaper to replace than the panel. Of the 16 EL34s, 4 were unable to be biased. I dug through my tube stash and was able to find 4 other tubes that I was able to bias in order to make the P5s work. Phew! One of them was a JJ El34 rental from my 1980 100W JMP Marshall head. As I mentioned, I love the sound of EL34s, either in a guitar amp or Audiophile amp!

As a note, the P5s are currently sitting on the floor in front of my rack as I don't have a place for them in my rack and I wasn't about to buy a new rack before I heard them. So yes, they may not be in an optimum situation.

Initial listening after finding tubes to make the P5s work was mixed. They definitely require a warm up period. After about an hour, they started to sound better. My budding audiophile GF (I should stop using that term, any recommendations?) stated that they sound "like velvet". I tend to agree. They have the CJ warmth but are still very detailed. With 60s jazz they sound sublime. More modern music / recordings they seem challenged. My Moscode seems to do better with more modern music and also seems to have better bass. The P5s definitely will need new power tubes as the current ones are on their last legs, and the need for new output tubes is readily apparent during dynamic transients. I'm thinking new output tubes will improve the bass performance as well.

For reference, my current digital setup is a dCS Network bridge into a Mytek Liberty DAC into a CJ PV5 preamp into the CJ Premier 5 power amps.

More to come as I become more familiar with what the P5s have to offer... and I spring for new tubes.

boxcar

[Boxcar]

My wife lives in fear that she will have to sell my stuff. I console her by suggesting that she might be lucky and pass first.

Ha! My GF would keep everything I have if I passed first.

She wouldn't let anyone touch it because it would be a way that she could still connect with me.

Unfortunately she might need St. Peter to help her figure out how to get it all set up and connect to Roon

boxcar

[AnotherJohnson]

Regarding the Premier 5s …

It is likely that capacitors will need to reform after this lengthy period of no voltage.

It was mentioned early on in this thread that the Teflon caps are probably good, meaning that they haven’t failed. But they probably need some thoughtful on - off cycles before they sound their best.

The other caps may well need R&R. Even polypropylene and polystyrene can run their life cycle since P5s were the rage.

And then there’s the sockets. With the power cord unplugged, seat-pull-and reseat the tubes two or three times to friction clean the pins and sockets. Three cycles is plenty.

And the tubes … these are old. Storage conditions are unclear. If you have access to an Amplitrex AT1000, it might be enlightening to test them.

In any event, I’m glad they arrived safely. You were braver than many would have been. Patience might be rewarded again by letting these break in over 6 or 8 weeks.

[Homerdking]

Hello guys.
I’m certain the tfc caps are not even fully broken in yet.
It takes 500 hours to break them in. I know I haven’t used them after the upgrade because of where they were being used.
I’d be surprised if I had over 100 hours on them.

I’m glade they arrived unharmed. Riding in shipment upright and not tumbling around or being dropped or whatever ground shipment might allow is best on these heavy things…
Your companions assessment of being velvety is accurate and correct.
Enjoy. homer king

[Homerdking]

The sound is very smooth and luxurious. Bill shared with me that”the inner retrieval of sound is quite glorious using the teflon caps”…
And he is absolutely correct.

[admin]

I would definitely give it more burn in time if it has less than 100 hours. I've experience many different components that improved significantly after 100 hours. And I too often thought that the improvement happened more with certain types of music vs others.

Retubing can certainly help, especially if the tubes are getting older or nearing end of life. With the current global situation, tubes are crazy high in price so it's going to be an exaggerated cost compared to just a half year ago. But what can you do?

[Homerdking]

Please be extremely careful cleaning the tube sockets like described in another post. Make certain that the insertion and retraction of the tubes is perpendicular to the socket. - not at an angle in any way.!
And also some of the socket connections are directly connected into a circuit board. It’s very easy to crack a solder joint cleaning the sockets like that. It’s happened to me on a pair of 8’s before. It’s a simple repair but a potential problem.
It’s all very delicate. Be very careful.
homer king

[AnotherJohnson]

The use of deoxit or similar is generally not recommended for tube cleaning. It might be ok for a socket, but both pins and socket probably would benefit from reseating. Kevin Deal says that most of the tubes that are returned to him as “defective” prove to be good after reseating at his place.

Friction cleaning is generally recommended over other methods. It should be done minimally … As noted, care is always needed.

If a socket can’t take two or three careful insertions for friction cleaning, it is probably ready to be replaced. Sockets do fail, as can solder joints. This gear is old by any standard, no matter how many actual hours of use it’s seen. Oxidation does not require on-time. It is a natural consequences of aging and affects both plastics and metals.

When guys are rebuilding/restoring old CJ units for resale, they often note that the tube sockets have been replaced.

[Homerdking]

Definitely don’t use deoxit. Yes to friction cleaning but still be careful.

[Big Dog RJ]

On the last occasion where my trusted CJ service tech did a complete overhaul on old tube sockets; he replaced all the tube sockets on the Prem8A's, Prem12's and Prem11A with ceramic type. Then he did a few mods on the older Prem1 monoblocks and Prem5's, and the results are stunning!

These are pretty much the same ceramic types used in CJ's top line TEA2SE/Max, and TEA1 versions of phono-preamps. I asked him if the ceramics are susceptible to cracks due to excessive heat but apparently for power tubes there's a special coating that they use on the ceramics, which extends their lifespan and creates a smoother diffusion of heat. So not much of a coating, rather a composite ceramic used nowadays, compared to the old stuff. Way better than plastic sockets though.

Very similar to what Kondo Audio Note and Lamm gear also use. One thing though, changing the sockets is a pain in the Butt with a capital "B!" Not something for the faint heart. I saw him do just one and ended with a hernia...

Glad all is well with the sale and communication was finally made. I think that was lacking, hence the wild human mind wondering... where are my amplifiers!

Cheers and all the best to those Prem5's.
Woof! RJ

[Boxcar]

Hey Gents,

I think the tubes that I couldn't get to bias just weren't able to be biased. I tried them in several different sockets and they behaved the same way in each one that I tried. Then I tried tubes from my stash in the sockets with the faulty tubes and they were able to be biased. I think all the tube sockets are working properly. I can certainly change them but for now my plan would be to leave them since they work. I have guitar amps that are 20+ years older than the P5s that still have the original tube sockets and are working OK.

Good to know on the Teflon caps and that they have less than 100 hours on them. I've often found that cap changes need a solid 100 hours before they really stop changing, and I've heard that Teflon caps take significantly more time.

The large blue power supply electrolytic caps look to be in good shape still as there's no sign of bulging or any weepage. That said, they're 35+ years old, so who knows.

So a question - should I buy new tubes for the amps now, or should I let the Teflon caps break in a bit more first to see how much the character changes before springing for tubes?

boxcar

Pictures of the P5s in front of my rack at my condo

Amps1.jpg (2.16 MiB) Viewed 1064 times

[admin]

Normally I would say buy new tubes. My hesitation is that prices are so ridiculous right now that it may be worthwhile holding off. Typically if the tubes are a little off on the bias it should not make a big difference in sound but it may decrease the lifespan of the tube. Now if you could hold off 6 or 12 months and maybe this stupid war will end, sanctions removed, and we get tube supply again,... the prices should come down.

If you have any pets or small children in the house I would get those covers back on as those large caps hold a mighty charge and can be fatal if accidentally discharged.

BTW- the system looks great. Look at those huge transformers.... very nice!

[Big Dog RJ]

Outstanding mate!

A true Classic, legendary amplifiers!

Yes definitely, I would get new tubes. Also be in touch with Homer K just to check if he may have any spares... A person with such a large collection of tube gear would usually have tubes in stock. So perhaps you could buy from him for very reasonable cost. He seems to be very genuine, so at least you'll have peace of mind.

If you're planning on getting a full set, I highly recommend the Mullards or SED Winged C type.

Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Boxcar:

I know Homer is honest and of good will.

But still … double check your plate fuses to make sure they’re of proper value. That will save you a lot of trouble down the road.

They’re probably correct … but confirm it for yourself. If they’re not, get the right ones. Don’t run it with fuses of incorrect value.

[Boxcar]

Normally I would say buy new tubes. My hesitation is that prices are so ridiculous right now that it may be worthwhile holding off. Typically if the tubes are a little off on the bias it should not make a big difference in sound but it may decrease the lifespan of the tube. Now if you could hold off 6 or 12 months and maybe this stupid war will end, sanctions removed, and we get tube supply again,... the prices should come down.

If you have any pets or small children in the house I would get those covers back on as those large caps hold a mighty charge and can be fatal if accidentally discharged.

BTW- the system looks great. Look at those huge transformers.... very nice!

That's a good thought, admin. Yes, hopefully in 6 to 12 months the prices will come down a bit and it won't be quite so painful to buy 16 EL34s. Homer said he plans to send me some spare El34s, too, so hopefully between my stash and what Homer sends, I can limp them along for up to a year without having to purchase new tubes. Thankfully they don't require matched tubes with their individual bias adjustments. Plus I'd like to get a proper rack that can hold them, so not springing for tubes at the moment would better facilitate a new rack purchase.

No worries on pets or small children. My GF and I are essentially empty nesters at this point.

Thanks for the compliment! They look better than I thought they would without their tube cages, given their industrial looking faceplates. But such was the norm in the 80s.

boxcar