Premier 5s Inbound!

[Boxcar]

Outstanding mate!

A true Classic, legendary amplifiers!

Yes definitely, I would get new tubes. Also be in touch with Homer K just to check if he may have any spares... A person with such a large collection of tube gear would usually have tubes in stock. So perhaps you could buy from him for very reasonable cost. He seems to be very genuine, so at least you'll have peace of mind.

If you're planning on getting a full set, I highly recommend the Mullards or SED Winged C type.

Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

Thanks, RJ!

Thanks for the tube recommendation! I know CJ was using the RI Mullards for a while, but they've gone to the stratosphere pricewise, too. There's a new PSVANE EL34 that is supposed to be a vintage Mullard copy that's a bit more reasonable. I was thinking I might try those if I was to order tubes.

https://www.vivatubes.com/new-matched-o ... uum-tubes/

I've used the old SED Winged C tubes in previous guitar amps and audio amps and they were excellent. I've heard the new ones are not the same as the ones from the early 00s, though. Any insight?

boxcar

[Boxcar]

Boxcar:

I know Homer is honest and of good will.

But still … double check your plate fuses to make sure they’re of proper value. That will save you a lot of trouble down the road.

They’re probably correct … but confirm it for yourself. If they’re not, get the right ones. Don’t run it with fuses of incorrect value.

Good point, AJ, I'll check them tonight.

boxcar

[Boxcar]

Good morning!

Last night was a bit shorter of a listening session but things are starting to sound a bit better (or perhaps my ears are adjusting). We didn't really do much detailed listening as we had some other things to attend to. The bias on the tubes seems to be holding for now. Homer told me he would send me some spares, so hopefully I can find a few from his spares that will bias up and can return the others to my Marshall and my stash.

To be continued...

boxcar

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Boxcar,

That's great to hear that Homes is sending across some tubes... certainly helps in finding the right set to work well.

Just thought I'd mention, regarding the Psvane stuff: I've tried many of their varients, had far too many disasters. They're mostly made in China and I'm not sure what it was but the entire stock I ordered on: EL34, KT88, 300B and small signal tubes were absolute rubbish. I contacted the Psvane distributor and made an official complaint but never heard from them to date. Got my fingers burnt big time!

That was in 2016, since then I've never touched another Psvane regardless of what voodoo they claim...

Just stick with the known and reliable brands; EH, Mullard, Sovtek, SED Winged C, GE, Phillips, Western Electric, Siemens, JJ etc., psvane nah mate, definitely not.

Just my 50cts worth.
Best, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I agree on the idea of not wasting money on knockoff tubes. Buy something known to be good and cry once.

[Boxcar]

Hey Boxcar,

That's great to hear that Homes is sending across some tubes... certainly helps in finding the right set to work well.

Just thought I'd mention, regarding the Psvane stuff: I've tried many of their varients, had far too many disasters. They're mostly made in China and I'm not sure what it was but the entire stock I ordered on: EL34, KT88, 300B and small signal tubes were absolute rubbish. I contacted the Psvane distributor and made an official complaint but never heard from them to date. Got my fingers burnt big time!

That was in 2016, since then I've never touched another Psvane regardless of what voodoo they claim...

Just stick with the known and reliable brands; EH, Mullard, Sovtek, SED Winged C, GE, Phillips, Western Electric, Siemens, JJ etc., psvane nah mate, definitely not.

Just my 50cts worth.
Best, RJ

Thanks for the PSVANE feedback, RJ!

Yes, I've heard similar things about PSVANE in the past, which is why I never tried them. Viva tubes claims a 1 year warranty on PSVANE, but that won't replace the OT if it goes with a faulty tube! My understanding is that PSVANE is a spinoff of Shuguang and had major growing pains when they first started, just like Shuguang did. I bought several of the early Shuguang power tubes because they were like half the price of anything else at the time and some would barely make it a week. I haven't really purchased any Shuguang since. That said, I had a supposedly fully tested / burned in RI Tungsol 5881 in a guitar amp that red plated and ate itself on initial power up, so New Sensor isn't exactly trouble free either, although they've become much better.

Sounds like the right plan is to hold off on the power tubes until the prices get back to something reasonable and utilize my stash and what Homer sends in the interim to keep the P5s going. Another option might be to buy some gently used tubes off the internet. Since I could buy singles and don't need matched pairs, I could possible get them for better prices.

boxcar

[Big Dog RJ]

Not to worry about it too much mate, I think Homes has you covered, since he's sending you some tubes, I'm sure they'll be fine. Just use those for now, you'll be all sorted.

Cheers, RJ

[roberto]

Hola Boxcar,

It is very wise to change the tubes that are out of the possibility to the bias adjustment. They could go bad in any minute and might cause a damage to the amp. Red plate indicates a bad tube.

You have a nice system.

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

I agree. But at least the Premier 5 had plate fuses. That has been a strong point for CJ from the beginning. ARC has only started using them in the latest generation.

[Boxcar]

Hola Boxcar,

It is very wise to change the tubes that are out of the possibility to the bias adjustment. They could go bad in any minute and might cause a damage to the amp. Red plate indicates a bad tube.

You have a nice system.

Happy listening!

Thanks Roberto!

I had a couple of tubes that wouldn't bias but I replaced them with some I had in my stash. So far they are all seeming to hold bias OK after replacing the 4 bad ones.

Today Homer sent me a bunch of spare tubes so hopefully with what he sends and what I have I can weather the tube pricing storm for a year or so until the tube prices come down from the stratosphere. It's currently $700+ for 16 EL34s no matter what the brand.

boxcar

[Boxcar]

Greetings!

Last night my lovely lady and I spent several hours listening to the P5s with various jazz and some funk. After an hour or two, I just couldn't help but feel they were lacking in PRAT - Pace, Rhythm and Timing - with the bass sounding somewhat undefined and mushy and not having much punch. To prove it to myself, I hooked the Moscode back up and the PRAT returned. Then I switched back to the P5s and it again went away, so it definitely seems to be related to the P5s.

Any thoughts on why this might be?

Could it be because the P5s are on the floor and not on proper stands or on spikes? Could it be because the P5s sat for so long and the power supply caps are still reforming after sitting? Old tubes? Could it be a phase they're going through with the Teflon capacitor break in? Do I need to jump on the cable carousel to see if different cables improve the sound? My current cables are Cardas - Golden cross speakers and Golden cross and Quadlink interconnects.

Curious as to your opinions and any thoughts on how I might be able to improve the bass performance.

I'm thinking worst case I bi amp them with either the Moscode or a PS Audio 200CX I have on the woofers, but I'd prefer not to do that as it's more rack space I would need to acquire to bi amp as having 3 large amps sitting on the floor just wouldn't sit well with my lovely lady.

Although converting the P5s to Triode mode and running them on the panels with a capable solid state amp on the woofers just might lead to sonic nirvana.... hmm...

Thanks in advance for your support!

Boxcar

[AnotherJohnson]

Be patient.

Time may tell.

These are very old … including the tubes, and the caps.

Frankly, the P5s are not SOTA.

Neither are your moscodes.

But the moscodes are broken in … and you like them.

You won’t know what you really have for a couple of hundred hours.

At that point, it may be clear that there are many many generations of improvements between the P5 and current amp designs.

Some would disagree, but my take on it is that 20th century is rarely (née never) better than 21st century.

YMMV

[admin]

I like to go at things by doing "low hanging fruit." All those things you mentioned may improve the sound but some are going to be easier than others and cheaper than others.

Sure, get them off the floor and see if helps. If you think it's a breakin issue, let them run for week. Maybe try some cables next. You don't have to go crazy expensive. I've heard some silver cables brighten or "speed things up" so maybe that is something to try (one recommendation would be http://signalcable.com/silverresolutionanalog.html, they are not "expensive" and there is a 30 day return policy if you don't like them). You could of course tube role (but it's the worst possible time in history to do that).

Biamping is of course going to completely change the sound.

[Homerdking]

Solid state on low end and tubes on the MRT……
Bi amp. !
For a very full range.

[Homerdking]

If need be because of gain differences , an active cover.

[Homerdking]

Xover or crossover.

[AnotherJohnson]

One idea that is related to the others …

What transformer taps are your P5s set on?

It’s free to try a different set.

You’re lucky because the P5 had external screw taps for 4, 8, and 16 ohms.

In my opinion (from experience), it is way too early in your ownership to start biamping these. Give them a chance to see what they can do.

And take the legendary descriptions with a grain of salt … all the gushing about old amps when they were new amps was relative to the contemporary competition. In 1984 when the P5 was introduced, it was exceptional against other known amps. But it’s 2022.

It’s fun to put together a vintage system, and it is rewarding in many ways … but it is vintage and competes against a vintage standard.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’m assuming your speakers are the ascent - i, introduced in 2003.

Their manual is available on the Martin Logan site under the support section, filed in the historic rather than current section. I tried to link to it, but was unable to.

According to the manual, there is a bass contour switch on the terminal block, labeled, so you could try that for free too.

And do take care to get the speaker wires phase coordinated so that one speaker’s low frequency output doesn’t cancel the other.

You’ve probably already got a copy of the manual. Martin Logan speaker manuals have historically been among the very best. There are several trouble shooting suggestions.

The modified hybrid Moscode is definitely a different animal, and you like it. On speakers like the ascent-i, the impedance can dip to very low values, and when this happens, the speaker cables become even more important because their impedance can become a greater percentage of the total load. So speaker cables may be a place to look.

There could also be some synergy between your modified Moscode hybrid and your preamp that is not replicated with the P5, or perhaps worse, the P5 may not be a good match for your preamp.

There’s just a lot of stuff in play here.

While we all respect BT and his reputation for careful work, the P5s are modded too, and that makes it harder to speculate about pairings.

I’m sure you’ll figure it out. Lucky for you that your girlfriend wouldn’t go along with abandoning the NYAL gear.

Edit: I see you’ve got a PV5 preamp. It should be a good match for the P5, although the CJ hope was that you would purchase a Premier preamp too ().

The real fly in the speculation ointment is that you like the modified hybrid NYAL Moscode.

If I were doing my Harvey Rosenberg impression, I’d say “It is as God intended. I have spoken.”

For those who don’t remember NYAL, the Moscode 600 is reviewed on p 82 of this issue of stereophile. I think Anthony Cordesman was the reviewer.

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-A ... 8-No-5.pdf

[Big Dog RJ]

If Boxcar mentioned that the sound doesn't have pace, rhythm, timing and sounds pretty dull, lacks sparkle etc., these symptoms are typically related to weak output tubes.

I would do a full tube replacement including the small signal tubes. The Premier 5"s are well capable of some serious power, so there shouldn't be any issues with power on demand. If it's lacking speed, agility and energy then that definitely sounds like weak output tubes.

Just because all output tubes are holding their bias ok, doesn't necessarily mean that the tubes have plenty of life in them... plus it may not even be all the tubes. Even a pair or two can dull the sound and cause the rest to sound lifeless.

Yes, it's going to coat you a fair bit to re-tube these amplifiers, welcome to the world of monoblocks! The cost of a full replacement will include output tubes and input & driver tubes, that will probably cost you more than what the amplifiers are actually worth... again, welcome to the world of vintage tube monoblock maintenance.

Been there and done it myself. At the end of the day, it's only worth the cost if you truly wish to keep these amplifiers. Like I said, BT's mods have been fully done to spec (I hope), Homer DK has checked the amps before shipping out and all is working as is the case... I sincerely believe all that is required is a full tube replacement set, and these should come back to life!

It's upto to you, and only you can determine whether it's worth the cost. All the best,
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

That’s why I suggested earlier that Amplitrex AT-1000 testing would be useful if there’s someone nearby to do it.

Replacing 16 tubes right now has two downsides.

1. Try and find someone with good quality to let you buy 16 in one fell swoop.

2. If you can pass 1, are you willing to shell out the bread.

The AT-1000 might allow you to identify the tubes that still have strong descriptors.

You can keep those, and maybe only have to buy a smaller number.