Looking for integrated or pre amp (warm, euphonic, 3d)

[smodtactical]

I am looking for a CJ integrated or power amp for my Vienna acoustics haydn grands and Yamaha ns5000s. I am trying to get a very warm, bloomy, rich, euphonic sound that still has some decent level of detail. Not interested in ultimate speed and neutrality. I actually have an ARC ref5se + pass x350.8 right now that gives me a fairly fast detailed sound that is very good but want something else.

I was looking at the CAV 45 S2 as an option. Would this be a good choice? My budget is about $6k. Open to used. Prefer removable powercord. Thanks!

[AnotherJohnson]

I think the CAV 45 S2 would be a clear change from your present gear. You might like it quite well.

You might also like the Classic separates, but your best bet might be something like a later 20th century PV preamp along with a period matching MV or Premier amp.

FWIW, CJ has not really offered a lot of integrated choices. Of those, the CAV 45 S2 is probably the most loved.

[smodtactical]

Would you say the Cav 45 still gives that warm euphonic CJ sound or is it pushing more towards neutrality and thus your recommendation for a PV pre + MV amp?

1 thing I do like about the cav 45 s2 is removable powercord lol.

[AnotherJohnson]

RJ may chime in. He owned the CAV 45 S2 and is quite good at describing how things “sound” to him.

I prefer neutral and uncolored, so that colors my views.

[admin]

I also agree that the CAV45 S2 may be what you are searching for. CJ is all about simple design to maximize performance. The CAV45 takes this to the next level. It's also a much newer unit so it should give you years (decades) of hassle free service. There is also a monetary savings of getting an integrated unit vs separate components.

[roberto]

I also had the CAV45 S2, and it is a clever design. Yes, you will get that blooming sound that you are looking for. The 6CA7/EL34 are one of the most blooming color sound of tubes. You have a passive preamp which makes it a very neutral input signal. Then the shortest signal path of the amp with a quality components. The result is a very musical power amp with a richness quality sound only found in Conrad Johnson goods. The timbre, the definition and the stage presentation is breath taking. You can't go wrong with this integrated amp...it is just pure magical sound.

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

Just curious … are you running the VA and Yamaha in a 4 channel system? Or in series? Or something else.

As an aside … I’m wondering why we often look to amps as tone controls. Sometimes an equalizer might give us what we want more quickly. Or, if not an equalizer, a different choice of speakers. Amps and how they drive speakers certainly have a huge impact on what you hear. But you can work the problem from either side … amps or speakers. I think the speaker end of this is a bigger deal, especially when you’ve got seriously good amp and preamp already.

Sonus Faber? Bowers & Wilkins? Wilson Audio?

Without knowing more about your VA + Yamaha set up, it’s pretty hard to even reasonably speculate.

Do you live near a serious high end dealer? Is it possible to get a good demo?

[smodtactical]

My VAs and ATC scm7s are my desk speakers (I just got the VAs in an effort to get a warmer sound than the SCM7s and it is quite nice and musical).

The ns5000 is my midfield speaker that I listen to when im in the listening position and not at my desk. I have to change speaker cables when i want to listen to ns5k.

The ns5k actually pairs very well with ARC + pass but I'll tell you what is motivating me. Hearing the hd650 black silk headphones with Bottlehead crack otl head amp. It created this rich, 3d magical sound that I am now trying to achieve on my speakers. I have dealers around me but none are willing to really let me do home auditions.

[AnotherJohnson]

This may be more of a room and positioning issue than an amp issue. Your existing amp and preamp are very capable of presenting a warm, 3D, euphonic experience.

Roberto has said that his Martin Logan CLX speakers, driven by a Classic 120 (I think) and an ET7, presents an experience very much like giant headphones. But he has worked very hard to achieve this with many tweaks.

[smodtactical]

AJ have you heard the modern ARC pres? My understanding is that they are fairly neutral sounding ?

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes. I have an LS28 SE with a Ref 75 SE and PH8 in one of my systems. The other main system (at another house) is an ET7s2 with LP275Ms and TEA1.

I think both systems are quite neutral, but the ARC system is more detailed. I can parse the German opera solos better with the LS28 SE than with the ET7s2 with either on the LP275Ms, but I like both for their open, musical, 3D presentation.

I also spent 11 weeks recently with a Levinson 5805 (but it failed and is now about 2 months back at Levinson while we wait for a replacement unit). I was really impressed with how much the 5805 delivered for its footprint. The replacement is due back in about 6 more weeks … it’s been delayed by backorder demand.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, the OP already has a very good pre-power combination as it is, so this could be a set up issue... but then again, that's SS! This is where tubes come into play, and especially the CAV45/S2. It has a magical soundstage, one that is truly immersive and has an enveloping affect. It was one of my favourite amplifiers of all time for what it can do and the price. Simply superb and it also won another award in a class of its own! I think it was from HiFi+ and another award from Tone...

Anyway, I've written about it in detail under another tab under CAV45, so please read through...

The only downside about the CAV45 is that it can't be pushed too far into driving difficult loads full range. You don't want to stress out the EL34's towards tonal break up...
Also, the CAV45 is a control amplifier, such that it doesn't have an active linestage as preamp. Hence, the level control is passive and just acts as an attenuator. Therefore, if you're planning on using a phonostage, you need to make sure the phonostage is of high gain and the cartridge is high output, otherwise you won't hear anything.

The CAV45 was also the most quietest tube amplifier I've ever used by CJ, extremely quiet thanks to a very special type of driver tube they use. Only CJ seems to stock these because when I required a pair, I searched far and wide and only CJ had stock.

If you're not planning on using a TT then digital sources are fine, the outputs have adequate voltage but definitely not phono.

I even compared it to ARC's new integrated the i50. The i50 is not bad... but no where near to what the CAV45 is capable of. That 3D imaging is just superb!
It's such a beautiful amplfier, and presents itself top notch! The S2 is even better, as it delivers more current since the trannys are slightly larger, and power supplies have been beefed up. In any case, both versions are excellent.

So see how you go and let us know your decision.

Cheers, RJ

[Truth71]

Re: the above referenced driver tube, was it a 5965?
As I understand it, the 5965 tube is a US military speced substitute for the standard 12AV7 tube type

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, it's the 5965 known as the 12AV7 type. Very quiet low gain tube, hence the low gain when playing phono with low output, just won't work. You need to crank it up... and that's when things get out of hand. However, on digital it's more than adequate, and most digital outputs from digital sources will have very good mV ratings.

Cheers, RJ

[smodtactical]

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, the OP already has a very good pre-power combination as it is, so this could be a set up issue... but then again, that's SS! This is where tubes come into play, and especially the CAV45/S2. It has a magical soundstage, one that is truly immersive and has an enveloping affect. It was one of my favourite amplifiers of all time for what it can do and the price. Simply superb and it also won another award in a class of its own! I think it was from HiFi+ and another award from Tone...

Anyway, I've written about it in detail under another tab under CAV45, so please read through...

The only downside about the CAV45 is that it can't be pushed too far into driving difficult loads full range. You don't want to stress out the EL34's towards tonal break up...
Also, the CAV45 is a control amplifier, such that it doesn't have an active linestage as preamp. Hence, the level control is passive and just acts as an attenuator. Therefore, if you're planning on using a phonostage, you need to make sure the phonostage is of high gain and the cartridge is high output, otherwise you won't hear anything.

The CAV45 was also the most quietest tube amplifier I've ever used by CJ, extremely quiet thanks to a very special type of driver tube they use. Only CJ seems to stock these because when I required a pair, I searched far and wide and only CJ had stock.

If you're not planning on using a TT then digital sources are fine, the outputs have adequate voltage but definitely not phono.

I even compared it to ARC's new integrated the i50. The i50 is not bad... but no where near to what the CAV45 is capable of. That 3D imaging is just superb!
It's such a beautiful amplfier, and presents itself top notch! The S2 is even better, as it delivers more current since the trannys are slightly larger, and power supplies have been beefed up. In any case, both versions are excellent.

So see how you go and let us know your decision.

Cheers, RJ

Thanks RJ and thanks for the comparison to the I50 that really helps. Do you have the cav45 now? What would be an upgrade from it ? CJ separates?

[Big Dog RJ]

No, I no longer use the CAV45 not because it wasn't that good or anything but merely due to the fact that I did a final purchase on speakers, which were the ML CLX Art's. The CAV45, although superb in every sense, would have struggled to drive the CLX's full range. So for this particular application, I went a step further and upgraded my monoblocks towards a higher Class A bias, in order to grip the CLX's and drive them optimally as full range stats, hence no subs and no crossovers.

The CAV45 is just a beautiful amplifier, and is more suited towards higher efficiency speakers. Typically in the range of 95dB and above, similar to the ART27A, they both prefer higher efficiency speakers with benign loads.

The upgrade from the CAV45 is in fact the CAV45 series 2. It has higher grade trannys, which deliver higher current & voltage, and the outputs are higher grade plated compared to the standard version.

If you were to incorporate Teflons and Vishays into the CAV45, that wouldn't make sense because then this will be similarly priced the same category of the Classic 62se. The thing is, the Classic 62/se is a stand alone stereo power amp, so you would still require separate preamp to control it. Whereas the CAV45 is pretty much an integrated version.

So yes, regards of upgrades any of CJ's separates starting with the Classic 62 and ET6 upwards, would be a significant upgrade from the CAV45.

Cheers, RJ

[smodtactical]

Hey guys thanks for the info. I am coming back with a new data point in terms of my preferences. I have my ns5k setup in a bigger listening space now. I build a bottlhead moreplay and believe it or not I like the moreplay more than my audio research ref 5se. The moreplay is more holographic, 3d, bigger especially in terms of depth. The midrange and vocals just come out and detach from the rest of the music with beautiful warm tonality.

I was really shocked that the moreplay which is less than 1/10th the cost of the ref 5 se and which was a pre amp built by me, beat the big well made ref 5se!

So I wonder if the classic 62 or the cav45 would give me a similar sound (possibly better).

[Big Dog RJ]

Good question mate! In this particular case you'd have to try it out, as these are highly based on personal preference. So not one is going to be better than the other, unless you actually auditioned or did a home trial.

What reviews say can only be taken as guidelines... as there are far too many variables in each system, gear, accessories, room etc., even the AC mains!
If you can arrange for a home trial, that would be the ultimate! Since you're familiar with all parameters. If you can't then perhaps demo these two amplifiers at length with music that you're familiar with, so that you can clearly determine which one you may prefer. See how you go.

Cheers, RJ

[admin]

Congrats on the bottlehead having such good performance. I remember looking at some of their products a few years ago and they seem to give really great bang for your buck and the fact that you can actually build them yourself seemed like a fun thing to tinker with. Whether the moreplay is actually better than the 5se, well, that is for your ears to decide. If it sounds better to you, count yourself lucky as you just saved some money!

I think it's hard to predict performance but something like the cav45 will be something that gives a lot of bang for your buck as you eliminate the need for separate preamp and amp. Whether the sound will be to your liking, nobody can say but you. However, it's a very nice unit and really top of the line. There is no other control amp that I would want in my system if I was going to go that way.

[smodtactical]

Thanks for the feedback. My friend has a pair of LP140 mono blocks and mentioned he would consider selling them and offered to let me borrow them. So im gonna grab them and try them out!