Audio Research

[Big Dog RJ]

Great stuff AJ mate!

The Ref6se should also be a better match with the Ref250se amps, such that you'll probably discover greater definition, further resolution and a sense of fine synergy. This is where the term finesse comes into play, it's mostly there with top end gear but it takes a while to get the combination right!

Keep those tubes glowing!
Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Great stuff AJ mate!

The Ref6se should also be a better match with the Ref250se amps, such that you'll probably discover greater definition, further resolution and a sense of fine synergy. This is where the term finesse comes into play, it's mostly there with top end gear but it takes a while to get the combination right!

Keep those tubes glowing!
Cheers, RJ

I was actually surprised last night while playing the Dizzy Gillespie recording from the 1980 Montreaux Jazz Festival. It is so indelibly etched into my audio memory, that I did not expect revelations.

I did not have the volume set inordinately high. It was at 22. Normally I listen to records at 20 to 30.

Yet I could hear subtle off-mike talking, and even the extremely faint time delay of Dizzy’s custom trumpet off-mike. I had not listened to this recording with the REF 6, so I can’t compare the 6 to the 6SE on this detail. But I had NEVER heard it before with any other equipment in my system. The taping was digital and my copy was released in 1981, so the delayed sub trumpet is not an artifact of long term analog tape storage before cutting the master disk.

The other characteristic that came out on this recording was Bernard Perdie’s drum transients. Wow! Always great on every system … but standing proud and special here.

[AnotherJohnson]

When you have time, I would love to see some pictures.

228E64FB-3087-415D-9B3A-FE3BBBCD19D1.jpeg (3.05 MiB) Viewed 7828 times

The 6SE could pass for a 6 if you didn’t look at the back.

Like the ET7s2, you can walk in the room and recognize that the sound from either is special.

I think the Sasha DAWs will be the finishing touch unless/until I decide to attack the streaming project.

I still feel helpless without control over the source file quality, and that just seems overwhelming.

If I do that, I think I’ll get a hardwire Ethernet connection.

With two well thought of built in DACs here (in the SACD players), I can probably experiment without buying a dCS or HoloAudio.

[admin]

The 6SE could pass for a 6 if you didn’t look at the back.

Looks great! So they don't have any particular faceplate change for the SE version but there is something on the back?

I think the Sasha DAWs will be the finishing touch unless/until I decide to attack the streaming project.

When are the DAWs expected to arrive? I know it's been a few months now since you ordered them and we are almost at the end of the year. I'm really interested in how much they improve this already "top of the line" system.

I still feel helpless without control over the source file quality, and that just seems overwhelming.

If I do that, I think I’ll get a hardwire Ethernet connection.

With two well thought of built in DACs here (in the SACD players), I can probably experiment without buying a dCS or HoloAudio.

It's a different medium, just like vinyl, CD, reel to reel. It has some strengths and weaknesses. I agree, you don't have to jump headfirst with 4 or 5 figure equipment to get a feel for it. If you want to explore the digital streaming rabbit hole, you can start with equipment you already have. A computer and a DAC that you already own is a good place to start. And even if you do want to take it up from there, you don't necessarily have to drop 5 figures on a dCS. There are some really exceptional units in the low 4 figure range (even upper 3 figures can get you some really good sounding DACs).

[AnotherJohnson]

1. Looks great! So they don't have any particular faceplate change for the SE version but there is something on the back?


2. When are the DAWs expected to arrive? I know it's been a few months now since you ordered them and we are almost at the end of the year. I'm really interested in how much they improve this already "top of the line" system.


3. And even if you do want to take it up from there, you don't necessarily have to drop 5 figures on a dCS. There are some really exceptional units in the low 4 figure range (even upper 3 figures can get you some really good sounding DACs).

1. The only visual difference is the SE after the Reference 6 on the back.

2. I regret giving my local dealer this order. I think my distant ARC/Wilson dealer is hardwired into ARC and Wilson and they get more attention to their inquiries.

No one has said the schedule has changed from mid to late December. I may call Wilson myself next week and try to get the guy I met at the Cocktail party to report back.

3. As it looks to me, you use your laptop or iPad to run your subscription to QoBuzz, Tidal, Deezer, Amazon, Apple, or whatever. I notice that in store demos they are subscribed to LOTS of providers.

You could get Roon as an organizer and interface.

You feed the file as a digital input to your DAC, and on to your preamp, into your system.

We presently use a MacBook Air for this, running a pair of JBL speakers … great for the boudoir, not so great for critical listening.

The leap to the big system is not worth it for the file quality I hear from Amazon Prime. Not a fan.

I suppose I’m making it a forced march. It’s supposed to be fun. Letting a big corporation know your listening preferences and have control to diminish quality as they whim just seems unAmerican. Or maybe I just don’t know what I’m doing.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I’ve had David Hazeltine’s trio as the feature today. I’ve been through several disks. I put a disk in, and nobody can diminish it, interrupt it, or mark down that I played it. Inviting Big Tech into the listening room rubs me the wrong way.

[AnotherJohnson]

Inviting Big Tech into the listening room rubs me the wrong way.

Inviting them into the boudoir is even dumber I suppose.

I was in Norway on a visit 20 or so years ago.

They had radar cameras mounted at frequent intervals on the main highways. My relatives told me that the cameras were used to identify speeders. A ticket would be sent to the owner of the vehicle … in my case it was a rental car company. If I were to get caught speeding on camera, the rental car company would back charge the ticket to my credit card.

I commented that in the US we valued freedom too much to authorize inanimate objects like cameras to charge us with crimes that no human had observed.

Within a few years we had cameras here at intersections to enforce traffic laws my mail. So I was wrong. Local jurisdictions were authorizing private companies to assign tickets for a share of the ticket receipts.

A few years later, the cameras were successfully challenged here in TN and were removed. But the idea of automated enforcement had been accepted initially.

Now there are cameras everywhere, and they have facial recognition software so they can identify anyone whose face is in the data base.

What’s one of the first things you do when you set up your mobile phone? You run the phone’s facial recognition software so that you can avoid using your pin.

We are nearly all known by our key facial features.

Seems like the right to privacy has been willingly exchanged for convenience. This represents a major shift in values and social constraints.

I am reminded of the South Park episode of the Apple agreement human centipede.

[AnotherJohnson]

Back to a relevant on topic post.

The REF 250 SEs do generate a lot of heat. At least as much as the LP275Ms. Yesterday was a warm day with high of around 70F. So the heat would not likely come on.

The REF 250 SEs were on for 8 or 9 hours as I work to break in the REF 6SE.

At their end of the room, the temperature at the end of the day was in the upper 70’s. I had not turned the AC on, and it rose unchecked.

The REF 250 SEs may be the “cold season amps,” to be exchanged for the REF 75 SE during summer months, although of course running the AC quickly takes the Temperature down. I like the very quiet HVAC in this room. The HVAC noise, whether heat or AC, is not a distraction.

I am listening at the moment to Christopher Hogwood’s Academy of Ancient Music rendition of Handel’s Messiah in CD. This has been rated as the number 1 recording of this work.

I last listened to this last Easter and recall how good it sounded at that time. My initial impression this afternoon is that it is even better after all the tweaks of the last seven months. The choral music is in English, but even so, my impression of the clarity of the lyrics has come up a notch or two. More of the hall is clearly audible too.

[AnotherJohnson]

ARC is now letting Paragon sell their $5500 custom colors integrated amp on line. Add a DAC and phono to have a one box system at $7250.

https://www.paragonsns.com/products/aud ... 0526580799

Comes in lots of colors. Add a matching set of the new Tune Tots, and you’d be surprised at how good it sounds in smallish rooms.

[admin]

It's interesting. I'm not sure what I think about all these different color variants. Audio Research is known for that elegant brushed aluminum look. Why mess with something that is not broken? I could see buying the silver, but who the heck is ever going to buy the blue, that is hideous,... I bet if you buy that in blue and you get a free bowl of soup.

[AnotherJohnson]

It's interesting. I'm not sure what I think about all these different color variants. Audio Research is known for that elegant brushed aluminum look. Why mess with something that is not broken? I could see buying the silver, but who the heck is ever going to buy the blue, that is hideous,... I bet if you buy that in blue and you get a free bowl of soup.

Young people living in small spaces who are color coordinating. They actually look stunning when paired with matching Tune Tots. Also women. Very high WAF. Small footprint. Unobtrusive. Great performance.

Rhetorical question- which is better? One or two color choices only, or several color choices? Nowadays even LP12 plinths can be ordered in a multitude of color options.

We all know how pleasure with a system early in your HiFi journey will be fondly remembered later in life. For some of us, a CJ component was our first high end piece.

I think ARC and Wilson are actually getting out front on this dorm room or small apartment system. And one person might like red, another blue, another something else. They’re doing this sort of color choice model with some handguns too.

I committed to buy a car yesterday. The inventory was picked over. The main discriminator for most buyers is the color.

[AnotherJohnson]

ARC has updated the REF 160M monoblocks.

From their announcement:

"The sonic improvements are what you dream about, with greater clarity from top to bottom, even better transient speed, more vibrant macro and micro-dynamic contrasts, and iron-fisted bass. Recorded music, regardless of the source type, just sounds more real. The music gains propulsion and movement, giving it a new sense of animation and life. We have taken a remarkable product and simply made it better.

The icing on the cake is that the MkII improvements involve new parts and wiring and they are retrofittable to original units."

If you like the original version, they’re available for short money.

[tonye]

ARC is known for their Mk upgrades.... I don't know how I feel about such... I suppose that buying used, with hindsight, it's good, but if I bought something new, paying a lot of money, and then they changed it in a couple of years, I might not be so happy.

Ex... my remaining ARC amp is a D70-II.... and I keep looking for a VT-200 MkII.

[AnotherJohnson]

ARC offers any owner of the model being upgraded to have theirs upgraded. The cost is modest, at least for people who were comfortable with the price of the original unit.

Don’t like the price? Don’t upgrade. But also don’t whine.

Tying this back to CJ, many people expressed displeasure when the ET7s2 was released close on the heels of the ET7. And at the start, because of the completely new circuit board, there was no upgrade path.

After several months of bad PR, JF decided to take the ET7s that had been bought new and offer those owners a very generous trade program. It was not advertised. I happened to be talking to him about modifying a GAT to GAT2 status, and he offered to give me an incredible deal trading my ET7 for an ET7s2. Of course I took him up on it.

Back to ARC, I upgraded my LS28 to LS28SE, and I upgraded my REF 6 to REF 6SE.

In all three instances I was very happy with the deal.

But some folks just whine about the unfairness of it all.

These companies, whether CJ, ARC, or someone else, have to make money to stay in business, and in my opinion and to my ears, the upgrades are sonically real.

I appreciate their efforts to advance their products. There have been incredible advances over the past 20 years. We may live in the Golden Age of two channel audiophile reproduction.

[tonye]

Not always... the upgrades in the VT series were serious... they went from solid state regulators to tubes...

[admin]

I personally like the ability to upgrade hardware. And not just for future upgrades but to offer variants of the same model.

This is the current list of upgrades that CJ offers: https://conradjohnson.com/project/model ... -upgrades/

Other manufactures such as ARC offering upgrade paths for their customers is welcomed. I know it's easy to say, they should just release a new and better unit. But upgrades offer a significantly reduced price point compared to buying "the latest release".

I also don't mind different versions of the same unit model either. My Holo Audio DAC has 3 different versions that can be bought. The price difference on the top vs low end unit is substantial ($4200 vs $5600). Even budget audio gear by manufacturers such as Schiit have products that have options on the internal components (and many of these are in the 3 figure range). So I feel like there is room in the market for these options in both the high and low end market.

Tying this back to CJ, many people expressed displeasure when the ET7s2 was released close on the heels of the ET7. And at the start, because of the completely new circuit board, there was no upgrade path.

I think the misstep here was that they were released t0o close together OR too far apart. If both the s1 and s2 versions were released at the same time, it would have been a simple choice for the consumer on how much they want to spend. I'm glad to hear that Jeff did the right thing and make the upgrade path affordable.

To bring it back to the topic. My opinion is that ARC is making a good choice to offer upgrades and support their products. They get an extra star in my opinion.

[AnotherJohnson]

Not always... the upgrades in the VT series were serious... they went from solid state regulators to tubes...

You do realize that the VT series was released 25 years ago, and that there have been at least five changes of CEO over that period. It’s completely irrelevant to consumers in the current era.

ARC publishes a list of units that they can no longer support due to parts availability issues. So you can “know where you stand” before buying a vintage piece. The remarkable thing about the list is not what’s on it, but rather what’s not on it. They are able to support many products that go way back. And in some instances, it’s clear from the list that some products were upgraded many times over extended time windows.

ARC and CJ have historically both tried to support their installed base. There are dissatisfied and disgruntled customers from both camps. In most arguments I’ve seen, I understand the company’s position. Even in my own disappointments.

[AnotherJohnson]

In this FAQ list

https://audioresearch.com/faq/

you can scroll down and see current SE upgrades, as well as the list of products for which support is not available.

Note the VT80 is on the upgradable list.

Note that none of the VT series are on the unsupportable list.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve noted in another thread that I’ve recently swapped my REF75SE back into my main system, and that I was pleased with the apparent finesse and greater inner detail compared to my pair of REF250SEs.

I recall that after a long period of enjoying my LP275Ms, the REF75SE had given a similar impression of “being better.”

I was discussing this (REF75SE preference over the REF250SE) with an “industry expert” today. He said “You are probably noticing the difference in the amp designs. The 75 is a Pentode design. The 250 is ultra linear. The REF75SE really is special.”

I seemed to remember that the LP275Ms have an ultra linear output stage too, and I confirmed this on the CJ website.
LP stands for linear pentode as many already know.
I wonder if this really is what I’m preferring.

I am thinking seriously about trading the REF250SEs on a Burmester. Auditions are in the offing. The REF75SE is holding my favorite spot, at least for now in my system.

[AnotherJohnson]

Across the board price increase of about 25% in March.

Probably necessary … if they can sustain volume. They need some new industry buzz to make this stick. The gear is great … very articulate legitimately high definition for tube gear. I guess their pricing is no more expensive than CJ’s. Maybe they’re just catching up. The ET7s2 is $13k and the LS28SE is now bumping up to $12500. Still a bargain.