Audio Research

[AnotherJohnson]

These amps were stated to have been sold NOS after the retirement of the model, and then after about 300 hours of use, traded for the REF160S “to get the current model with the ghost meters.”

If that story is true, then these are not even broken in yet.

I can see why the REF 75 SE was considered special. It brought a significant part of what the 250s could do
for about a third of the msrp.

RJ said these were as good as it got a few years back.

Like the fellow who’s just upgraded to ART 88 and ART 300, and may be springing for ART 108s soon, my system is over amped and under speakered. I wonder if Sasha DAWs will be enough.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, that's correct. I know another chap who sold off his Ref250se amps to try out the new RefM160's. However, for some reason he's always complaining that certain areas are lacking in trying to drive his redurbed Apogee's. He now regrets selling the Ref250se's knowing that they would have performed far better on the big Apogee's, since they were designed for difficult loads. However, the sad thing is, he never tried it!

So selling off something great in order to make way for something better, is not always the case. He quoted the other day saying that "change is not always better." Now he's trying to get those Ref250se amps back but the second owner isn't budging, he knows he struck gold on the SE series. They are outstanding amplifiers!

The S-Daws will be supreme with these, not to worry at all mate. Get ready for a wonderful ride!
Woof! RJ

*btw those were the same M160's that he brought over to my place, which I tried out for a week*

[AnotherJohnson]

I think the Apogees would like 250 SEs.

Last week at the ARC dealer the REF 160 S drove the Alexia Vs VERY well.

I was at my local dealer today. Sigh … their demos always disappoint. Rose 150B into McIntosh 12000 preamp into MC1.25kWs into Chronosonic XVX.

Cabling includes a wide range of plugins and distribution boxes. It was horrible after last week. Heck, it was horrible compared to last night at my house.

You can’t unhear a great system. It haunts every new listening session.

[Big Dog RJ]

Exactly right!

That's why when you've carefully set up your own gear, with great insight from whatever reference points you've gathered over the years, and have properly evaluated all angles and tweaks, it's a marvellous thing when it all comes together. Then compare to some very lofty gear...uh??? What happened? Ain't this other system over half a mil then why isn't it sounding too flash...?

I think even the most decent simplest of gear, well designed and properly set up in ideal conditions, will out perform even the lofty ones. It just takes time to get it right. Put in the effort and wait for it to open up nicely then it's plain sailing... wonderful!
RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

I always preferred the Ref250se compared to the M160's. I'm not sure what it is... perhaps personal preference I don't know. Those Ref250se monoblocks are something else!

Maybe ARC's bigger and boulder amps, such as the Ref320 and Ref700 series are superior but that's an awful lot more spend. It's right up there! Really admirable company though with a fantastic history of fine tube amplification.

I'm also very happy to see CJ gear forging ahead... especially in such difficult times where the cost of living has gone bonkers! At least these two companies are still producing some fine tube gear, and they're really at the top level. In all areas of design, price and customer support, they've got the business model right.

Would be interesting to see how far they go and where they end up... another legendary one is McIntosh. Whatever said and done, they're still going strong! Good stuff!

Cheers, and keep those fine tunes playing!
Woof! RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I'm also very happy to see CJ gear forging ahead... especially in such difficult times where the cost of living has gone bonkers! At least these two companies are still producing some fine tube gear, and they're really at the top level. In all areas of design, price and customer support, they've got the business model right.

One thing I’ve learned from talking with high end leaders, reading and observing is that the high end is nearly recession proof.

JF has long said that CJ’s major revenue stream is from sale of the flagship models.

FWIW, I never thought I would own a pair of REF 250 SEs.

These are turning out to be a joy. The handles facilitate moving them if needed. I love having them on a cabinet instead of on the floor.

The bias strategy is easier than I’d realized. The adjustment affects three tubes simultaneously. You punch the bias button and turn the screw to center the needle in the target zone. Press again to check to see if the next tube is in the acceptable range. Then again for the third tube. Then the process is repeated. It’s very easy and no special equipment is necessary.

I like the natural finish.

I really LOVE the SILENCE and the fact that they will run on the P20. No hum. It hasn’t been this simple since the Krells.

CJ, ARC, and McIntosh will weather the storm. With CJ’s low overhead, they may fare best.

[AnotherJohnson]

Hear’s what TAS said about them when they were introduced.

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articl ... amplifier/

Maybe that’s where admin got the $17k figure. It increased to $19k before they were discontinued a few years later. And then when they were discontinued the few remaining units were released to sell at about 50% off.

Mine was sold as one of them and then traded on a new model with ghost meters, auto biasing, and triode mode switch.

[AnotherJohnson]

The REF 250 SEs have now run here for about 25 hours and they are noticeably better still. Either the balanced Transparent Ultras are breaking in (they are new, on trial here courtesy of Transparent), or the amps really are “low hours” and they’re breaking in … or maybe both.

The pair of Thunderbirds should be delivered today, and I’ll be checking them out in comparison to the Ultras.

One thing of interest is that my OEM CJ power cords would get warm to the touch as a listening session progressed. In fact, running both CJ amps into a 15 amp rated power strip (as advised by CJ), the power strip’s cord would get warm too.

The Frey 2 power cord running the P20 is dealing with over a kilowatt, it is cool even after five hours. Not a criticism of CJ but an observation about good characteristics of the Nordost.

[admin]

Glad the 250's are performing well. Interesting to hear what you think of the Thunderbirds.

As for the CJ cord becoming hot. That's interesting. A little heat shouldn't be an issue but surprised they didn't use a cord of higher gauge to prevent that sort of thing from happening. Most important is to check the plug for heat as that portion is the most critical.

[AnotherJohnson]

Warm, not hot.

OEM power cords are a trade off between length, gauge, and flexibility. I think they all meet the gauge requirements for their amperage.

I like the CJ upper level “hospital grade” cords because they must be at least 10’ long, and they’re not bulky and very flexible, so they’re easy to route.

But with that said, the ARC REF series cords are noticeably beefier. And the mid to high range aftermarket cords seem beefier still, although AQ is now going to lighter gauge conductors for what they call constant current (source) applications.

I never really heard much to excite me before discovering the Hurricanes.

ARC cautions against aftermarket cords. They call out the minimum gauge and grounding requirements.

I’m running these on the 2 m used pair of “$2500” Transparents from the last generation. Those cords are actually somewhat awkward to use.

The 2 m Hurricane will be here next week and then I’ll try the 1 m 2m Hurricane combo.

[Big Dog RJ]

The REF 250 SEs have now run here for about 25 hours and they are noticeably better still. Either the balanced Transparent Ultras are breaking in (they are new, on trial here courtesy of Transparent), or the amps really are “low hours” and they’re breaking in … or maybe both.

The pair of Thunderbirds should be delivered today, and I’ll be checking them out in comparison to the Ultras.

One thing of interest is that my OEM CJ power cords would get warm to the touch as a listening session progressed. In fact, running both CJ amps into a 15 amp rated power strip (as advised by CJ), the power strip’s cord would get warm too.

The Frey 2 power cord running the P20 is dealing with over a kilowatt, it is cool even after five hours. Not a criticism of CJ but an observation about good characteristics of the Nordost.

Without a doubt!

Nordost accessories are one of kind, truly unique with any highend gear, it will just elevate the system to its full potential.

Sadly many don't try it simply due to price...so it's not too affordable. However, there's always good deals that suddenly come up on the previous series, that's when to grab one! Try it once and you'll get the idea of their tech.
I just prefer their gear, hence use nothing else at this stage. Again just a personal preference, that's all.

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

The 6SE arrives tomorrow.

There are a lot of really great people in this hobby.

I expect this to be my final preamp. The only bad part of this is that I’ve got over 700 hours on the 6, so it’s broken in.

My experience has been that the ARC (and CJ) gear sounds great on day 1, but the multi hundred hour break in is a reality. It’s a tough job, but someone’s got to do it.

[admin]

Exciting. It will be an interesting upgrade but as you say, it will be a little time until you hear the full potential.

[AnotherJohnson]

I still long for that dealership that will demo ARC and CJ side by side. My ARC dealer can demo McIntosh, DAgostino, Burmester, … but no CJ. I may ask if there’s a mutual nonaggression pact in play.

I expect their strengths are different when current models are compared. I expect that comparisons between units that are a generation or two apart probably fall in favor of the more recent generation.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is real progress from generation to generation most of the time. JF told me this in 2018. He said my LP275Ms were incredibly good (and he was right), but he also said that the ART series was even better. I have no doubt that he is right on both counts.

It shocked me that the REF 75 SE is soooo nice. The 250 SE (same generation) is even nicer. The 75 Wpc stereo amp forced me to rethink what power really meant. But at the end of the day, more power seems better than less if the designs are otherwise equally well executed.

[AnotherJohnson]

Since the 6SE will be in the system on Thursday afternoon at the latest, I decided to put the AudioQuest Thunderbirds in as a direct swap for the Transparent Ultras tonight. After the 6SE is in, it won’t be clear what’s happening until it’s broken in.

Tonight I started out with SACDs, but for the last three hours I’ve been listening to vinyl. I’ve chosen familiar recordings that I’ve also heard with the Ultras in recent days.

My first impression was that the Thunderbirds were faster and tilted toward the bass … but after the first hour only the “faster” impression remained. The spectrum balanced out. I don’t know if this was part of the charging of the 72V DBS, but as the evening progresses, the Thunderbirds just keep developing more presence and greater detail and snap.

I suppose this might have been expected. The 2 meter pair of the balanced Ultras retails for $3300. The 2 meter pair of balanced Thunderbirds retails for $5500. There’s nothing that the Ultras are doing “wrong.” They sound quite good. But I think the Transparent Reference series is probably a better match for the AudioQuest mythical creatures series. Too bad they all cost so much.

It’s nice when cheaper is just as good or better, but in my system, between the amp and preamp, the Thunderbirds are clearly more “real” sounding.

I suppose that another possibility is that my preference for the Thunderbirds is due to some synergy with the other AQ speaker wires and interconnects in my system. And, of course it is a preference, not an absolute. My ears, my system.

As curious as I am about Firebirds and Dragons, they’re just too much for me. It is hard enough to use a 2 meter interconnect that retails for the same price as a HoloAudio May KTE. The cable industry appears to be where the pirates are.

[admin]

Lots of changes going which should be fun to experiment with to see what kind of performance you get with new equipment and cables. The Thunderbirds look amazing. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference between RCA vs XLR. It's nice to have both options and I can see why you would go with the XLR's so you don't have to worry about ground loop issues.

As all things in this hobby, cable prices can reach the moon. Price vs performance needs to be determined by our ears. It's nice to know you have some of the world's best cabling in there.

[AnotherJohnson]

It would be interesting to see if there is a difference between RCA vs XLR. It's nice to have both options and I can see why you would go with the XLR's so you don't have to worry about ground loop issues.

Anecdotally, at least one reviewer noted that, at least in the case of ARC’s recent REF series, that XLR was perceived to beat the SE to his ears. More important for me than the reviews is that my own experiments trying to take advantage of the lower gain of SE when matching SACD players to the LS28SE, that the XLR really does sound clearer and quieter (both being good). I did these experiments with AQ MacKenzies of which I have a large number of lengths of both XLR and SE. I don’t know if my results would extrapolate to higher level cables.

My current mind set is that I will never buy another “single ended only” component. I have the Ruby SA-KI, the ND8006, and a Denon three head tape deck that are all SE only. All the other boxes here, except the amps (XLR only), are capable of either. The latest line of ARC amps offers both options.

XLR is recognized by everyone (even CJ) to be preferred for long cable runs. The argument made on behalf of SE is always that it is less complicated circuitry, speakers are all SE, and in the short runs of home systems, there’s no advantage to XLR. Further, some lower level XLR options use cheap op amps to recombine the signal at the end of the path, and reportedly, when this is done, it sounds bad.

I think it’s one of those cases where you really have to decide with your own ears.

I don’t know if the latest generation of CJ ART amps would have the ground issues that I found so frustrating. But I do know that the XLR connected REF series amps do not have them. I do know that buying that LS28 to flip opened a whole new window on the world for me. The easier understanding of foreign language programs boggled my mind. And that was all SE based since my CJ amps were not XLR capable.

[AnotherJohnson]

UPS finally brought the REF 6 SE at 6:30 pm. The guy who brought it was a contract worker in a white pickup truck. He had UPS attire and he was dropping off rather than porch pirating. So I guess it was legitimate.

The box had been severely whacked along the way. Bottom seam was partially busted and one bottom edge was torn.

I took pictures. But the 6SE itself was not damaged.

It is singing vinyl right now.

It is brand new. New tubes. New tools. The high dollar remote. Warranty. Warren Gehl’s personal initials to confirm it passed his listening tests before boxing.

I will send the 6 back to the factory, probably on Monday… but maybe on Friday. I had been reluctant to do the swap tonight, but it only took about 45 minutes, including R&R of the 10 screw plexiglas top cover so that I could install the tubes.

I am glad I did it. It already sounds superb, so I’ve got 600 hours of break in to “suffer through.” I think I’ll manage.

I’m still in hour #1, and I really think it is even better balanced top to bottom than the 6, at least on this record.

I continue to marvel at the distance between what must be perfect and what the current high end can achieve. Every time you think you’re at the limits, the limits get pushed back.

[admin]

Glad it got there safe. Sounds like it was banged up but the packaging did its job well.

If already out of the box it is sounding better than the 6SE I think you are going to be very happy in the long run. As you say, you just have to "suffer" through the burn in.

When you have time, I would love to see some pictures.

[AnotherJohnson]

Glad it got there safe. Sounds like it was banged up but the packaging did its job well.

If already out of the box it is sounding better than the 6SE I think you are going to be very happy in the long run. As you say, you just have to "suffer" through the burn in.

When you have time, I would love to see some pictures.

I’ll take a picture of it tomorrow, but the only cosmetic difference between the 6 and 6SE is on the back where it is labeled as Reference 6 SE. This is one swap that, once installed, even the most observant wife would miss. Not that anyone would try to slip one in on their wife.

I’ve been playing Pablo jazz disks tonight. I just played Dizzy Gillespie live at Montreaux in 1980.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital ... reux,_1980
I’ve had this album since it was released in 1981.

I used to play it several times every year, but I haven’t played it for the last three or four years.

I grabbed it off the shelf tonight and it was like I knew all the music and all the lines, but my seat had been moved to the stage and my ears had been cleaned out. Once again I found myself clapping with the live audience.