C-J vs McIntosh

[bluemeanies]

Just a short note here. The proof is in the listening. Your ears and your system, no matter McIntos/CJ. I personally like both companies and how their products have withstood the test of time. How both companies are innovative. Champagne faceplate or green lights glowing it’s all beautiful to me. Of course it’s the endpoint that people are driven to with both McIntosh and CJ. That listening experience that’s sets you apart from your neighbor.
I personally know audiobill and HE was the one who guided me to a whole new realm of music enjoyment by introducing me to tubes. Audiobill had built many, many perhaps hundreds of tube amplifiers. My first tube amplifier was Bob Latinos m125 mono blocks. Push/pull. For the money it is a good value. For one to get inducted into the world of tubes it is a great amplifier for reasons of value and sound quality.
Like everything in this hobby we move on. Roughly three to four years ago I jumped ship on the BL amplifiers and graduated to
Conrad Johnson…USED…VINTAGE.Hey the price was right and the pieces were in excellent condition. I did replace all tubes but for the price I paid..shipping included it was a steal.
Audiobill introduced me to Conrad. I was impressed with what I was hearing with my CJ PREMIER 140 coupled with a nonglamorous but analytical home made SP14 pre-amp bought to life by audiobill. Not to long after the purchase of the 140 I was able to claim a Conrad Johnson 17LS ll pre amp and for my liking this combo with my 803’s is sublime.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’d bet tomorrow’s lunch that “it just sounds right!”

[AnotherJohnson]

This seemed like the right thread to start adding some related info.

Here’s a picture from the McIntosh history book by Ken Kessler. He also wrote the ARC history book, and most here are familiar with his decades long large body of work.

Sense of scale in Binghamton

IMG_0604.jpeg (4.22 MiB) Viewed 1923 times

This could be used either on the + McIntosh side OR the - McIntosh side.

Of course the ears are more important than the eyes.

I keep whining about the impossibility of getting a side by side dealer demo for McIntosh and CJ owing to the dearth of legitimate bricks and mortar CJ dealers.

It is much easier to get a McIntosh vs ARC demo. There is some overlap in their dealer network. My own favorite dealer is Paragon Sight and Sound in Ann Arbor (west of Detroit).

McIntosh is a bargain when you consider their commitment to building in house, including things like casework, glass cutting, populating circuit boards, supporting old products, offering regional service centers, and incredible bullet proof designs and builds. And they are not only huge value for money, they hold their value over time, often even increasing.

If you pick a price point, say $30k for amps and preamps, and compare the sonic performance of what you can buy from McIntosh to what you can buy from CJ or ARC, relying on my site to site audio memory, McIntosh holds its own.

On the used market, ARC and CJ do better. This is because they both depreciate so much faster and farther than McIntosh. A $20k used system from CJ or ARC nearly always had an MSRP of $40k or more. A used McIntosh system for $20k probably started with an MSRP somewhere between $15k and $28k. The $20k used system comparison will often fall sonically in favor of CJ or ARC.

McIntosh is an apple. CJ and ARC are oranges and cherries. You have to account for goals and taste when comparing them.

Obviously from the pic above, I’m reading the book. More on that later. I will comment now that I’ve already come across three places where they’ve explained the serious hum problem that can come with single ended designs when components are not all plugged into a single outlet. That is why when they designed the modern versions of the C22 and MC275 that they updated to include options for balanced connections.

[admin]

Really good points. All very fine gear McIntosh/ARC/CJ.

I think you make a really good point that on the used market you can probably get more bang for your buck with ARC/CJ due to greater depreciation. McIntosh seems to really hold the value. This will obviously favor buyers who make purchases of new gear vs preowned.

Would love to get that book, but looks like it's priced with McIntosh gear... and of course great resale value on amazon looking at used prices!

[AnotherJohnson]

The book’s title is “For the Love of Music.”

It is readily available from McIntosh, or from dealers.

Retail price is $150, but dealers may discount. The used prices I’ve seen often approach $250. I don’t understand this since it is not out of print.

I’m nearly done reading it. It is quite honest … it shows McIntosh warts and all.

Lots of great pics. Lots of interviews (which seems to be Ken Kessler’s style).

It was a true stroll down memory lane for me. My father worked at IBM between his appointments at Yale and Worcester Polytechnic Institute. IBM was also headquartered in Binghamton in those days, so many local highlights are familiar to me.

Of course, as I’ve noted before, my formative audio years evolved into adulthood before CJ was even a glimmer in the eyes of the founders.

The book really gave me a better understanding of how McIntosh evolved … and why I have dismissed their “house sound” from the 80’s through the early part of the 21st century.

McIntosh is the real deal. The current models are far more sonically satisfying than those from the last quarter of the 20th century.

I still prefer modern ARC to modern McIntosh… but modern McIntosh is very very good.

[audiobill]

I enjoyed reading the book too! Very interesting.

I think he also wrote a book on KEF, and since I'm considering the KEF Blades.....

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, Ken Kessler’s books are interesting, in part because he “assembles” them more than “writes” them. Both the McIntosh book (published a decade before the ARC book), and the ARC book are fascinating because of the great interviews and historical figures he includes.

It would be hard to do a CJ book because there just aren’t that many people tied to its history. After you get by Bill, Lew, and Jeff, you’ve got a handful of people whom we fondly remember from phone conversations, but you don’t have 7 or 8 ex presidents, a wide range of chief design engineers, many past marketing directors, a whole cadre of current employees who’ve been there since high school or their college co-op job. I would buy, and cherish, a CJ history book. But I doubt it would be 100 pages long.

I’m sure it would be a LOT better than the VPI history book, which I cannot recommend in good conscience.

Regarding McIntosh, I sorely wish that I still had room for two or three serious systems. If I did, for my first #2 system, I’d get a C12000, an MC462 (or possibly a pair of MC275s to run at 150 Wpc monoed), and a pair of Alexia Vs (or possibly a CPO pair of Alexxs). Maybe buy McIntosh cabling (it’s cheap compared to high level AQ or Nordost or Transparent) and swap other stuff in and out to see if McIntosh can show off wire differences effectively. I’d use the second LP12 as the source.

At $16k retail, the C12000 has two phono inputs that are gain adjustable, and resistive load adjustable AND capacitive load adjustable. When you look at what you get in the C12000 compared to anyone else’s high end preamp, the C12000 is a genuine bargain.

It’s a two box unit. It has 6 balanced and 6 unbalanced inputs (two of which are phono). It gives you the choice of running with tubes or running in SS. It has a pair of balanced outputs. It has fixed and variable unbalanced output options.

ARC’s two box preamp is twice as much. CJ doesn’t offer a two box model any more, but their flagship is nearly twice as much.

I would love to hear a sonic shootout with ARC REF 10, CJ ART88, and McIntosh C12000 participating. Cabling, amps, sources, room, and speakers all optimized for each.

If part of the evaluation included convenience and features, even with a low weighting, it could tip the outcome. If part of the evaluation included 5m distances between preamp and amp, or the use of multiple electrical outlets, I know it would affect the outcome. Sonically, there would be clear differences (I think, but don’t know this). But would those differences represent true advances toward the reproduction matching the master tapes? Who can say? It may be that the differences are truly preferences for one lack of perfection over another.

It will never happen. None of these companies have anything to gain by comparisons. They’re each working on their loyal customer base. Obviously, from my own experience, people can be moved from one camp to another. But most people will stay in their camp unless something bad happens in the way of poor customer service to drive them out.

[Big Dog RJ]

Kenny K also wrote up the Quad book, The closest approach, I think it was called. I had all three books, gave two away and still have the Mac book.
When I purchased the Quad, ARC and Mac gear, these books were included in the shipping cartons, so it was certainly a nice read.

Now I use the Mac book as a weight to hold my LP's straight on their shelves... have read it quite a number of times.
Attn: Admin- you can have my Mac book if you like. The question is, how do I get it across to you?

As far as AJ mentioned about the all time shoot-out / comparisons on all three ( ARC, CJ and Mac), side by side is a very rare kind of setup, since this would be a comparison towards a specific purpose. However, I've definitely auditioned all three in separate systems, including VTL and VAC gear plus Manley Labs. These three brands also have very rich history behind them and they make some very fine gear, including Lamm Audio and Jadis. Mustn't forget those!

In fact, I just got the update from one of my Spore dealer mates, he's just taken delivery of the latest Genesis speakers called the Tribute, which were produced in honour of the late Arnie Nudell. He's using a full array of Lamm amplifiers and another dealer is using the VAC Statements, top of the line on his Genesis Dragons. Or are these the Genesis Primes... can't remember. Anyway, these are very two mighty fine systems I'll have the opportunity to audition in July. According to him, he says best sense of a live creation even though it's still reproduced music!

Agreed on the different types of set-ups / system components, ARC and CJ have always offered a superb level of tube finesse. Mac has some pretty good SS gear that can deliver fine quality. VTL, VAC, Lamm and Jadis are on another level, I was truly impressed with each type including their price tags! However, when it comes to tube gear, I don't think Mac can offer this same level of tube finesse compared to others. That's just my experience so far.

If I were to choose on SS gear, it would be Dartzeel, Vitus and Pass Labs or even Aries Cerat. They make a superb integrated Class A dual chassis amplifier, it's out of this world! Pricing was quite similar to both the Dartzeel and Vitus gear, so again another whole different dimension altogether.

As of this stage, I'm not too interested in comparing any of these brands/ gear side by side, I don't see the point. I rather just enjoy what each one brings to the world of reproduced music and how each system offers a closer understanding into fine recordings.

If you've already found that best gear / system based on your own preferences and absolute high standards of musical enjoyment, that's all that matters, regardless of which brand. I'm doing exactly that!

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Best, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

In my opinion, the most fascinating part of the book is an interview by Dirk Roos of Gordon Gow in 1981.

This gave HUGE insight into the McIntosh design and marketing philosophy. It’s on pp 292-5.

If you get a chance to grab the book, I’d recommend reading this early on rather than waiting until you’re tired of reading the nearly 300 pages preceding it.

PP 282-291 are a reprint of the McIntosh and Gow article in Audio Engineering from December 1949. This will be a difficult read for those without a technical background, but it is also VERY informative if you’re interested in the technical breakthrough that drove the creation of the McIntosh amplifier business.

[admin]

I've mentioned this before but I am really impressed with McIntosh going from the audiophile market into the premium consumer market. The fact that they are featured in car commercials is rather impressive as you don't really have that crossover in our hobby. Now granted, most audiophiles will scuff at the idea of listening to high quality music in our car or the fact that the fancy blue dials are simply computer generated on the dash display, but nonetheless, it's an interesting phenomena. The only similar thing I can think of is the transition that Bose made. I certainly hope that McIntosh doesn't do a complete general consumer switch like Bose did but I'm sure can see the appeal of going into a consumer market that is measured in the millions vs the thousands.

@RJ - Thank you for the offer but as you pointed out, the logistics of shipping would be difficult and in good conscious I could not accept such an expensive gift. The only viable solution I see is that I come visit you and read the book while there!

[AnotherJohnson]

A couple of recollections…

Bose was never in the audiophile market. In those days (Bose was an EE Prof at MIT)) lots of professors in the Boston area were starting commercial activities based on electronics and acoustics. Inside the 128 beltway they were legion.

The modern day audiophile did not yet exist. There were guys who were High Fidelity Buffs. As stereo emerged in the 60’s, the industry grew … but the true lovers of sound never embraced Bose and his 360 degree multi driver arrays or his corner loaded designs. He was mocked by “those in the know” shortly after their first demo. Bose didn’t care. He took the consumer attraction to his unusual but pleasing sound fields to the bank and never looked back. He was a brilliant businessman.

McIntosh has always been focused on being the Rolex of amps and preamps. A big part of their business was government contracts, radio stations, sound reinforcement systems. They were never trying to attract audiophiles. They were always driven by the quest for building highly reliable, measurably near perfect, well supported equipment. Hi Fi Buffs took note and became a market … it was/is the David Wilson Market, ie the market for “the well made thing.”

Early on, as the concept of an audiophile developed through Stereophile and TAS, McIntosh was actually well reviewed.

But Gordon Gow did not trust BS artists who listened and pronounced judgements without the ability to actually measure or understand what was going on. A good review didn’t necessarily help much if you were already selling well. A bad review tended to damp sales. Like Linn, McIntosh pretty much ignored the audio press.

Most of what I’ve written here comes from my own memory of events, dating back to the 1963 time frame when I was first introduced to true Hi Fi Buffs who owned Marantz, Scott, Fisher, or McIntosh monaural systems in their homes .,. A reel to reel tape deck and a large cache of tapes were always the primary source. Records were convenient for their small footprint in storage … but vinyl was demonstrably inferior (on the TT set ups of those days) to reel to reel.

But having just read the McIntosh book, I would say that it corroborates my recollections and fleshes them out.

McIntosh is a serious small company (small by the standards of industry). They have real engineers, real finance guys, real marketing, real technicians, a seriously well thought out manufacturing capability in a well appointed physical space.

They are an order of magnitude ahead of ARC in these regards. And ARC is an order of magnitude ahead of CJ, which is essentially a one man show.

In the guitar industry, Martin is McIntosh, Collings is ARC, Taylor is Bose, and Whitehead is CJ.

There are customers for all of them.

FWIW, Linn, Krell, Levinson, McIntosh, JBL, Bose, and probably some others, have or have had auto industry projects. But most people do not ever experience the first four because they stay in the lane of “the well made thing” that most can’t afford. JBL and Bose have big exposure. I’ve had both JBL and Bose “high Fidelity” auto based systems. Both have been reliable. To my ears both are more enjoyable than than the lower level options they replace. Neither approach what you can enjoy outside of a vehicle enclosure (at far greater cost). And none of these support CD play any more, which I miss.