Odd comparo upcoming

[AnotherJohnson]

The BF 210 sub will be moved to augment the B&W 705 S2s Saturday. I am curious to hear if this can bring the system in the Boro closer to the main system. My decision to pull the BF210 out of the Revel F228Be system last month was a good call. The fully broken in F228Bes just do not benefit from the presence of a sub in a two channel music only system.

[AnotherJohnson]

I listened to Mingus “Ah Um” on vinyl at the main system this afternoon.

I brought it with me back to the Boro tonight and am listening again.

The TEA2MAX is still replacing the TEA1 in the main system, so the resident mc phono in the 5805 is being used. No sub here yet, so the B&W 705S2s are by themselves.

On this 1959 recording Charles Mingus is playing bass instead of piano.

On the main system this afternoon Mingus’ bass work was THE highlight, although all of the musicians gave good accounts of themselves.

This evening Mingus’ bass is not central. The other instruments step forward and the imagination has to insert a stronger Mingus.

If I hadn’t listened this afternoon on the main system, I would not have noticed this.

The Levinson is really doing very well. This recording agrees with the 5805/B&W, except for that issue.

Instruments are clear. Great sound stage. Great snap. I did not expect it to be as good as it is.

What a thrill it would have been to be present in those May 1959 recording sessions. I was probably at the WELI radio shack busting their trash tubes to hear them pop.

I knew I had Mingus Ah Um on CD, and so I dug around and found it. It’s on the 5101 now. Same speakers, so bass isn’t any fuller … but it’s very nice, and might be preferred over the vinyl in this second system.

[AnotherJohnson]

The subwoofer was installed with the B&W 705 S2s and quite a bit of tweaking has been enough to get an OK result on some programs. But blending the Martin Logan BF210 with the B&W 705S2s is proving more difficult than when I blended it with the Martin Logan Theos.

Phase is probably the most critical aspect. I may have to try some alternate placements. It would be nice if subs had a remote control to allow blending by ear from the listener position. Martin Logan alludes to the idea that they may offer a remote module … but I’ve never seen one available.

Bass isn’t particularly directional. The BF210 appears to sum the L and R bass signals for amplification by the single on board 850 watt digital amp. That may be the biggest difficulty in blending compared to using a true full range stereo pair of floor standers.

[admin]

It can be rather difficult to pair a sub with the stereo speakers. This is one of the reasons I only use a sub in my home theater setup and not the stereo. I've personally found it very helpful to use a calibration mic and software to help mesh the sub in with the speakers.

ML sells one specifically for this purpose for your sub:
https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/ ... t-bass-kit

I use this one specifically with REW software:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoust ... ent/umik-1

I typically like to calibrate by ear, but I find the low end to be sometimes particularly hard to do via ear alone. I use the mic and software to get it "right on measurement", and then fine tune by listening. It helps to have the visualization on the computer screen and then I can make active adjustments on the sub and positioning. It makes the process much faster than my typical, listen to music, make a small adjustment, listen again, another adjustment, repeat 100 times....

Just something to consider.

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes, I’ve used the PBK and I think it’s a good addition.

For whatever reason, probably because of its development path, the ML BF210 pairs really well with ML hybrid dipoles.

I’m using double bass material played by guys I’ve heard live, some known well to me.

I am very close but not ready to light the cigar. It’s another case where if I did not have the F228Bes for comparison, I’d be pretty happy.

I think the solution will be to enlist a helper to tune at the sub based on what I hear at the listener.

I ran across a program this week that must have an inversion in the recording chain. It sounds right 180 degrees away from the phase of where others sound right.

The sub augmented B&W 705S2s sound better than the B&Ws without the sub… and both cases are quite good. But I don’t think adding the sub will break the 705S2s into Class A. Another sad truth.

[AnotherJohnson]

The blending problem is always fraught with compromises.

Two point source mid woofers 8’ apart and 4’ from each side wall need to be augmented by two 10” subwoofers firing in a third location. The sub woofers fire opposite each other (both moving in the same direction) to keep from cancelling each other. Edit: to clarify, by same direction, I mean outward together and inward together, so they are in phase together.

The $64,000 question is how to get them in phase with the two primary speakers? Since the sub is at a different distance, and the sub’s amp is not the same amp, nor designed with a necessarily optimally compatible cross over, the problem of “perfect bass” is daunting.

In the case of ML main speakers, at least the cross over is designed to be compatible.

I’m running the BF210 with speaker level inputs to try to have as much sympathy with the ML5805 + B&W 705S2s as possible. Actually, it’s the only choice since I don’t see any preamp out jacks. So it’s not a choice even though I did choose it. Where are those McIntosh pre out jacks on the non McIntosh products?

The BF210 has many levels of adjustment. In my experience a good ordering is to set level between 4 and 6, set low frequency cut off at 70% of the -3 dB lower limit of the main speakers, set 25 Hz bump at 0, and sit down. Play a familiar double bass program, and have someone else dial in the phase. You can literally hear the reinforcement or cancellation at the listener location. When you’ve clearly got best reinforcement, have them play with the level. Then when that sounds pretty real, play with the 25 Hz bump carefully. This is a dangerous control because you are playing with a part of the program that is not actually present in many programs.

[AnotherJohnson]

I finally moved the sub out of the Martin Logan suggested position on a diagonal alignment in a front corner …
ML does recognize that that it’s just a suggestion.

I’ve moved it equi-distant from both speakers, centered facing the listener. No wall horn effects, simpler timing, less room gain.

It took several CDs worth of double bass rich recordings, but it is as dialed in now as it will ever be. For final level setting I use Paula Cole’s Tiger. I adjust to the onset of room shaking, and then back off to quench. Aside: I had this sub paired with Theos in the great room at the other house at one time. The great room is over a basement, so not on a slab. The first time I played Tiger with the sub it literally shook the whole house in a worrying way.

The B&W 705 S2s are very good in the bass for stand mounted speakers, and that may have made this a more challenging project.

Meanwhile, the Levinson 5101 is really coming into its own. It is well along the way to being broken in. It has handled SACDs well from the start, but the red book CDs are falling into place now too.

Unless I start streaming, and begin to use the built in DACs, there’s not a lot more to say.

The 5805/5101 combination is compact, versatile, and entertaining. It looks sharp. It sounds really nice. And the B&W 705 S2s aren’t full range, but are quite believable.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, the 5805/5101 combination, running the F228Bes, is crushing it. It is REALLY convincingly real. I’ve got 30+ hours on the F228Bes in the Boro, and the top end and midrange are clearly “there.” The bass is excellent, but still improving. If the lengthy break in of my other pair of F228Bes are any indicator, this system is going to be exceptional. It is blowing the MA12000 based demo away.

[AnotherJohnson]

Harman Luxury Audio group includes both Revel and Mark Levinson.

This combo of 5805 and F228Be really sounds like they were designed together, or at least Revel tested and evaluated with Levinson and vise versa.

Levinson is reportedly still made in Connecticut. Revel builds globally, most recently in Indonesia. But both have US based design and testing (unless Revel has changed recently).

As the hours mount up on the F228Bes (about 10 hours of opera and classical, 10+ hours of jazz, and 10+ hours of album oriented rock), the bass is really coming together.

Last night my last listen went back to Mingus Ah Um (digital remaster in the 80’s of the great 1959 recording). I listened to this last week at both houses (before the latest speaker change in the Boro), so it’s fresh on my mind. I listened to it last week on both CD and vinyl, and the CDs were played on the SA-KI Ruby and the Levinson 5101 while the vinyl was played last week with LP12 + Etna + TEA1 and LP12 + Kleos + TEA2MAX. So I had a pretty good dose, and a wide range.

Last night I ran the LP12 + Kleos + ARC PH8 into the 5805 driving the F228Bes. My wife walked in. She can hear and discern differences, but doesn’t care about them. She sat down stunned. Need I say more? And this is the lesser front end. My best is at the other house.

This odd comparo is probably of little interest to most, so thanks for humoring me. I think we all know the joy that good changes can bring.

[AnotherJohnson]

11 weeks into the Levinson 5805 experiment, and it’s dead today. Not the fuse. I checked it with an ohmmeter. Not the outlet. It powers any other plug ins.

So … to the dealer tomorrow. Another chance for me to test an American Icon’s service department.

[roberto]

Not good news!...Levinson is difficult to service. Still own the ML-6B mono preamps...did you have the same thing some time ago? Or I might be wrong. Perhaps is just a little thing, like a wrong pushed button. Just guessing. Mark Levinson sound is pure precision and control.

[AnotherJohnson]

Not good news!...Levinson is difficult to service. Still own the ML-6B mono preamps...did you have the same thing some time ago? Or I might be wrong. Perhaps is just a little thing, like a wrong pushed button. Just guessing. Mark Levinson sound is pure precision and control.

When it first arrived, I had an issue with buttons on the 5101 SACD/DAC remote sticking and wreaking havoc on the 5805’s ability to accept its own remote’s commands. But I figured it out quickly (during the same listening session).

In recent weeks the 5805/5101 combo has been increasingly good. With the change to the F228Bes, it took a great leap forward. I was in awe of it when I left here on Friday evening.

On Monday afternoon I pushed the “on” button, and instead of booting from “stand by” to “on,” it went dead.

Checked fuse. Checked outlet. R&R’d the power cord. Several times over the course of the afternoon. No joy.

I’m afraid that something related to chips or ICs has failed.

I will talk to my dealer today. It has the new warranty, and it is well within the warranty period. I’ve only had it 11 weeks.

Unfortunately this undermines my intended disposition of equipment. With only one system in each house as the goal, my ET7s2 and LP275Ms are no longer redundant. At least for now until the Levinson issues are resolved.

Now we’ll get to see how easy it is to work with Levinson service. The 5805 is part of Levinson’s entry level line. The msrp is a paltry $9350. . They “hold the price down” by using some integrated circuits in non critical places. Now we’ll see if they can fix them.

FWIW, the fact that CJ is not using ICs or chips is a plus for CJ’s long term repairability. At the same time, it is also the reason that CJ has few features compared to ARC, McIntosh, or Levinson. It is also a reason why the Chinese counterfeiters who are running amuck on eBay, are able to sell things based on CJ’s older designs, sometimes even putting the Conrad Johnson name on the casework.

CJ repairs or upgrades are expensive … but they’re of high quality, and they support the last grand old US tube shop. ARC is back in individual hands too … a former ARC sales manager bought the company back from the McIntosh Group a couple of years ago.

Well, more as this unfolds.

[AnotherJohnson]

Meanwhile, I will bring the ARC gear to the Boro and set the CJ gear that I’d intended to sell back up at the other house. Lucky for me I’ve not boxed up those amps yet. I had arranged for help to box them up this weekend.

Until the Levinson 5805 issues are resolved, I’m down to two working systems without formal choice.

I could do worse than reinstall the ET7s2 and LP275Ms. In fact, it would be hard to do better. Choosing to keep the Levinson over the CJ was a “marriage of convenience.” Returning to my first love, may prove to be a watershed moment.

[admin]

Just don't get too comfortable with that ET7s2,... wink wink.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve actually thought about going through with the sale, also selling the 5805 when it comes back as new, and rolling the money into a GAT2.

[admin]

Didn't know you are thinking about getting a GAT. That would be an ultimate dream preamp for me... but I shouldn't even think about such things. For now I'm fixated on your ET7s2!

[AnotherJohnson]

I often wonder about GAT2 and REF 6SE or REF 10.

Also REF Phono 3SE and REF Phono 10.

They just seem like they couldn’t possibly be “worth it” with my goals.

But it’s free to wonder… until it drives you to act.

[AnotherJohnson]

Good news and bad news on the 5805. And then more good news.

Good News #1 - my guy made a few calls, and Levinson has agreed to send a new one, factory sealed, as a replacement.

Bad News #1 - Levinson does not have one to ship, but the replacement will be from the next batch. Should be “soon.”

Good News #2 - I moved the ARC amp and preamp to the Boro by myself. The CJ gear will probably get reassembled at the other house tomorrow. The ARC system has the Levinson 5101 and an LP12 with Kleos and TEA2MAX as the front ends. The speakers are the new pair of Revel F228 Bes. If it’s possible, this is even better than last week.

[admin]

It's good to hear that they are standing by the products and not giving much fuss. Sounds like the 5805 will be back in business in no time!

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve never had doubts by thinking that Harman would welch.
But in these times when the chip supply is 90% from China and Hong Kong, just because someone wants to do what’s right doesn’t mean they can.

At the start of Covid, I accepted a pair of white M126Bes that were to be replaced by black or wood finish as soon as they came in. I waited 9 months, got tired of the white, and sold them to a guy with California decor. They still can’t actually get a pair of the wood finish on any known timeline. Indonesia, where Revel had moved manufacturing, is a long way from the US mainland, not much is moving out of Long Beach, and what does move may be stolen in transit before it gets to Cucamonga.

So … we shall see how this plays out. CJ also uses international suppliers for some components, but I doubt they use much from the Far East.