Odd comparo upcoming

[AnotherJohnson]

I want some music in the new room at the alternate house, but I don’t want to remove music from the old room at the first house.

When we finally sell the first house everything will be consolidated at the new one.

In the interim, I’ve got speakers and sources, but no extra amps or preamps.

What better solution for this problem than an integrated amp that could be easily sold.

Being of Scandinavian descent, I first looked at Hegel. The Norwegian company does their manufacturing in China, so I lost interest.

There are CAV45s out there. The S1 isn’t being chased. The S2 is. I tried to buy an S2, but someone beat me to it.

I looked at several other options that are actually available, and ended up buying two …

My first McIntosh product in decades, an MA5200, and a Levinson 5805.

Both were incredible deals from inside connections, so when I sell later, I should break even or better.

I’ll have them in hand later this week, and will compare them. It should be interesting.

The MA5200 has the old style pre-in, main-out jacks. So I will be able to run it into the LP275Ms too. McIntosh has always been strongly feature driven.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I have no great expectations about how these will fare head to head against the ET7s2 + LP275Ms.

But, as we all know, trying new things is always fun when you’re setting up a new system.

If history is any guide, these will find they’re way to new homes eventually… but a beautiful point is that both are movable and shippable. Even for an old guy with bad knees.

[AnotherJohnson]

I picked up the Levinson 5805 this morning. The MA 5200 will arrive Saturday.

I ended up bundling some other stuff from Levinson with the 5805.

The 5101 SACD DAC alphabet soup was too nice a deal to pass up.

I auditioned the 5805/5101 combination on the Golden Ear Tritan Reference speakers, and enjoyed them more than I thought I would. But I did not bring them home.

So … now I’ve got way too much new stuff to sort through. I’m curious to see how the 5101 compares to my Marantz SA-KI.

One thing I wish was avoidable is the need to make everything stream. I’ve now got several devices with built in DAC and streaming functions. I guess the manufacturers are afraid to put out an SACD/CD product that does not include a streaming function for fear that the market is just too small.

[admin]

Congrats AJ.

I look forward to hearing what you think about the new components. I'm interested in hearing what you think about the MA5200. I know we are sometimes a little harsh with McIntosh on here (perhaps wrongly so). I noticed that on the back of the MA5200, it lists 8 ohm only for the speakers. Does this mean that it is not compatible with 4 ohm speakers?

Agree with you that lots of components are now trying to integrate streamers. There has been a big push for streaming music as a primary medium.

Again, look forward to your thought on the new equipment. Happy listening.

[AnotherJohnson]

I look forward to hearing what you think about the new components. I'm interested in hearing what you think about the MA5200. I know we are sometimes a little harsh with McIntosh on here (perhaps wrongly so). I noticed that on the back of the MA5200, it lists 8 ohm only for the speakers. Does this mean that it is not compatible with 4 ohm speakers?

McIntosh is famous for their autoformers which adapt to a variety of loads, always capable of delivering the rated power.

The smaller integrateds do not use autoformer technology, but use a different dynamic power adaptor technique.

I do not like the autoformer sound until you get up to the 450 wpc units.

Since there is no such thing as an 8 ohm speaker (all speakers have complex impedance that varies with the frequency of the feed), the 8 ohm rating isn’t really a problem.

Tests show the MA5200 delivering 100 wpc into 8 ohms and 160 wpc into 4 ohms.

This modestly powered integrated would be a bad choice to drive a speaker that dips significantly below 4 ohms. It does have McIntosh Power Guard, so it won’t destroy itself… but the sonic quality will be degraded if you dip too much.

I am going to run it with nominally 8 ohm speakers. I wouldn’t hesitate to run it with 6 ohm.

Most tests suggest it can handle a wide range of speakers, but I doubt there are electrostatics on the list.

The deal was good enough that it won’t be a problem to sell it, and it’s modest weight make it feasible to ship just about anywhere.

[AnotherJohnson]

It is worth noting that the presence of the pre-out jacks allows you to use the MA5200 as a fancy preamp, feeding the signal to the power amp of your choice.

I loved this feature of the old gear. It was quite common back 40 years ago, but dropped out of most manufacturers’ units.

So … one could buy an MC 452, and use the MA5200 just as a preamp if one wanted to.

I predict that the MA5200 will not be in any of my systems a year from now. But I am going to give it an unbiased test on the nominally 8 ohm B&W 705 S2s.

[AnotherJohnson]

On factory specs the 5805 spanks the MA5200.

125 wpc into 8 ohms. 250 wpc into 4 ohms.

The McIntosh spec, as admin pointed, is 100 wpc into 8 ohms, and no official spec on any other load, although reports are 160 into 4.

Admin suggested that we may be too hard on McIntosh. This was a generous comment.

McIntosh is Cadillac. Conrad Johnson is Ferrari.

Both may be great in their own way. McIntosh runs rings around CJ if the goals are features and flash. CJ runs rings around McIntosh if the goal is state of the audio art sonic performance. And, of course, McIntosh has a far better dealer support system.

FWIW, both the 5805 and the 5200 are lower end components of ML and Mc respectively, so whatever I think about them, I won’t know anything about their higher level offerings, except from showroom listening.

[Big Dog RJ]

Good stuff AJ!
Always a fun ride when trying out other gear and putting together different systems.

As you correctly pointed out, neither of this gear is on par with CJ, no chance mate! I've heard a few of Mac's new line up, and it's OK... a warm sounding signature, nothing too bright and fairly well balanced. Good drive, good control and plenty plenty of features, bells & whistles and equalisers... has a sort of thick & sluggish sound though... that's about it!

Sonic performance comparing to what we're used to... no where close! It's just the way it's designed and made, made to look flash! Anyway, do let us know how it all goes.

Best, RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

M Levinson OTOH, some of their older gear I have respect for. I really enjoyed a pair of top line Levinson monoblocks driving a notorious pair of Infinity Epsilon's. Although the overall sound was highly coloured, the presentation in soundstage was quite good. I believe it was the Infinity's that were the culprit, not so much the Levinson amps because a few week's later, I experienced those very same Levinson amps driving an old pair ML Monoliths, very nice!
It had all the transparency and inner detail that ML-Stats are know for, so overall that was a very positive experience!

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Regarding the pre-out main-in set, McIntosh uses a jumper that must be removed.

I wonder if there’s a whole aftermarket set up for $400 jumpers.

I would venture a guess that the pre-in main-out set up does degrade the sound. I think that’s why no one uses it anymore.

It adds complexity in order to facilitate flexibility. It’s a typical McIntosh sort of feature … very useful if you’re not chasing audio Nirvana.

[AnotherJohnson]

I had a chance to set up the Levinson 5805 + Levinson 5101 + plus stand mounted B&W705 S2 this afternoon.

I started letting things run in. At first I was a bit put off by all the menus and such. I had this same negative impression with late model AR gear, but as in the case of AR, the Levinson menus are logical, and not that confusing. What I really liked though is that I was able to just stick it in position, install the interconnects and the speaker wires, turn it on, and easily start playing music right away (using the 5101 with SACDs as the source). I didn't even have to look at the manuals. Of course this used to be the norm, but nowadays, if you buy computer controlled menu driven gear, sometimes it can drive you crazy as you try to discover its secrets.

As has been the case with other Levinson stuff that's found its way here, the build quality is as you would expect from a serious high end US built product. I liked the ease with which I could see the display on the front of both units from the listening position. The letters are large and readily readable.

The red herring in the mix is the B&W speakers. I've never been a fan, but was surprised at how nice they sounded at the showroom "for what they are." These are inexpensive stand mounters ($3k msrp plus stands), easy to move around (20.5 pounds each). But they sound very musical to my ear when driven by the 5805. I was surprised that they were able to sort through musical threads effectively. This set up is not any kind of reference level system, but it beats many of the other systems I've heard in auditions over the years.

In any event, my first impression of the Levinson set up is very positive. This evening, I'm back at the other house, and my main system here is certainly better ... but it also cost more than 5 times as much, retail to retail.

I have not yet unpacked the McIntosh. I'm going to run in the Levinson / B&W set up for a week or two, and then I've got to decide how to go about the evaluation. The 5101 vs. the SA-KI Ruby, for example, ought to be evaluated in the main system where the only change is the SACD player. That's the only way I'll know for sure whether the 5101 can hold its own against the Ruby. To evaluate the B&W 705 S2s, I ought to bring them up to the main system too, and try them with and without the ML BF210 subwoofer. As for the integrated amp, I suppose I could bring that up to the main system too.

But all of that sounds like a lot of physical work. And then if I force myself to think about dealing with the McIntosh too, it becomes overwhelming.

Eat an elephant one bite at a time.

[AnotherJohnson]

The McIntosh is pretty, and what works sounds OK. But it's going back to the seller. Problems are covered in the Eating the Elephant ... or Another One Bites the Dust thread that I've started for that purpose.

[AnotherJohnson]

Meanwhile, the Levinson 5808/5101 and B&W 705 S2 is cooking along. Coleman Hawkins and confreres is playing. It’s always a delight. And this Verve SACD is no exception.

Hawkins is playing as the headliner, but the band includes
Oscar Peterson, Herb Ellis, and many other A-Listers.

At the showroom I was impressed at how well the 5805 drove the latest version of the Revel Salons. It’s also very happy handling these little B&W 705 S2s.

I’m surprised at the clean bass extension. It’s a decent room, about 5000 cubic feet in volume.

I may switch over to the balanced inputs just to get an impression. I found a pair of good XLR interconnects buried on a shelf when I was sorting out the MA5200. CJ won’t run them, and neither will the SA-KI Ruby. So they must be a holdover from a gone Krell or AR system.

My audio memory is better than the limits that many claim. I’ve played several of these CDs so often, I know exactly how they sound on my reference system.

This system does not sound as close to real as the main system at the other house. But it is surprisingly nice. I won’t even qualify that with a “for what it is.” What it is is “quite good.”

[admin]

Glad to hear your back to listening to tunes after the McIntosh affair. Enjoy the music.

[AnotherJohnson]

You don’t even have to listen critically to discern the quality of the CJ based system. You can tell while walking around doing things, like packing the McIntosh… it’s now in the hands of FedEx. It took over an hour to get it back into its triple boxed protection.

The Levinson based system is very nice, but until I’ve tried the combinations and permutations of 5805/5101/705S2, ET7s2/LP275Ms/SAKI/228Be, I can’t say more than that. The main system is as good as I’ve ever heard in any audition. The new system is “very nice.”

[AnotherJohnson]

After running CDs and SACDs through the 5101/5805/705S2 system for several hours this afternoon, I’ve switched over to my second vinyl session. Yesterday evening I set the mid spec LP12 up, ran the Kleos through the TEA2MAX, and enjoyed Norah Jones’ Day Breaks, and Ladysmith Black Mambazo’s Shaka Zulu.

Tonight I’m starting out with Kenny Burrell and Coleman Hawkins’ Moonglow (recorded in 1958 and 1962).

I haven’t gotten around to trying the resident phono section of the 5805. The MM input has 39 dB of gain. The MC input has 69 dB of gain. For the Lyra Kleos and its .5 mV output, about 54 dB seems right. On the bright side that’s right where my TEA2MAX HG sits.

The LP12/Ittok/Kleos/TEA2MAX is showing itself to be a great source. I’m glad I didn’t sell this stuff when I pared down to just one full system last winter. The other duplicate source I kept was the Marantz ND8006 Network streamer CD player. Marantz has upped the price on these to $1500. Although I don’t need it, I may use this for my original purpose to stream my own CDs to the Denon Home 350 in another part of the house.

The vinyl performance here is making me wonder if the weakest link in this system isn’t the speakers, but instead is the 5101. It is very nice. There’s that phrase again. At an msrp of $6050, it’s not cheap. At that price point, there are probably better … I think the SA-KI will beat it ($4k msrp).

FWIW, I did switch the 5101 to 5805 interconnects. AudioQuest MacKenzie RCA to the XLR version.
The immediate affect was to need to drop the volume setting.

The noise specs are great for either balanced or unbalanced, with balanced measuring better. As a practical matter both were dead quiet. Since I don’t have interference entering through the 1 meter interconnects, the theory of balanced being better, once levels are matched, is just a theory. CJ says balanced isn’t needed for home systems, and I agree.

Kenny and Coleman are really synergistic together. This is a great album, a great 4 sides of vinyl, and I can’t remember when it sounded better.

[AnotherJohnson]

Back to the audio memory idea … I’ve had many of these albums as evaluative program material for over 30 years.

I can tell from the next room if the performance is not up to the best. (Frederick Lejonklou used to recommend you evaluate from the next room).

So far the 5805/5101/705S2 is not up to the best. It is clearly short.

I’m not saying it’s not good. The best is the enemy of the good. I’m saying it does not rise to the level of the best. I’d rank the 5805 higher than the McIntosh MA5200, but since it retails for nearly twice as much, it should win that comparo.

I’ve brought the 5101 up to the main system and will do some comparisons with the Ruby his afternoon.

[AnotherJohnson]

I installed the 5101 in the main system and did several hours of comparisons between that and the Ruby with cuts from both Red Book and SACDs.

Honest to goodness, up until I turned off the 5101’s display, the Ruby was the clear winner. But with the display off, the 5101 noticeably improved. Level matching was important because the 5101 is definitely feeding a bigger signal to the preamp.

Which is better?

I dunno … both unravel the musical threads very well. Without having been involved in the mixing, there’s no way to tell which is more accurate. The 5101 is a bit more forward and aggressive, but I like that. Both get your toes tapping and engage the listener.

And you’ve got to remember that both have a range of filters and settings that change the character and transient response. I know I can live long term with the Ruby. After turning off the display in the 5101, I feel like it will hold up over time too, but I’ll have to decide that after another few weeks of listening.

A key to my liking a component is that it has to give a believable presentation. Both of these SACD players do that well. Msrp of the 5101 is now $6050. Msrp of the Ruby is $3999. Both can be found for less by good shoppers.

[AnotherJohnson]

More experiments …

The Ruby is closer to my LP12 + Lyra Etna + TEA1.

Is this better? I dunno. It’s different. Both are enjoyable. Clear. Crisp. Excellent piano. Excellent snap. Great bass extension (the BF 210 is back in, tweaked to a new optimum based on the evolution of the F228Bes). Excellent vocal reproduction over the whole range of voices.

But they do sound a bit different, which could change if I started tweaking the filters.

Which is closer to reality? I’d have to have been in the recording sessions to know. Both are very believable.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve finally gotten around to looking at reviews. Most people would probably do that first, but I never do. Too many times I’ve found the reviewer to be out of synch with what’s important to me.

Nevertheless, the reviews I’ve found have been positive. One even had just finished reviewing an SA-KI Ruby and considered it warm compared to the 5101, hence preferred the 5101.

Looking at reviews, the 5805 came up too. There is one very negative thread in the Audiogon forum due to reliability issues experienced by a couple of buyers in NC. But in general, the actual reviews were good.

One of the things to keep in mind is that the 5xxx series is entry level compared to the 5xx series which gives you the full Monty for about twice as much money.

The sound seems quite good. I’ve been attracted to the 5805 since I first heard it when it was introduced.

Levinson, Krell, and McIntosh all appeal to lifestyle buyers. They’re all pretty beautiful. I like Krell’s look the least well, but it’s ok.

I guess for now I’m done thinking about these. I don’t regret the failure of the MA5200. The entry level Levinson gear is very nice, even approaching the high end. It should be a good second system for casual listening.