PV15 or Classic 2/2se

[Rubicon15]

I currently have a CJ MV60SE paired with a Bryston BP6 preamp. The Bryston is a class A preamp. Similar to CJ, it’s built like a tank and sounds great. I’m confident it will provide another 10+ years of trouble free service. However, I’ve been thinking about trying a CJ tube preamp. I honestly don’t know if it would make a difference but I’ve been thinking about trying to find a PV15 or another CJ tube preamp that will pair well with the MV60SE. I would love to hear what other CJ owners think about this option as well as other suggestions. Should I just stop and be happy with the Bryston?

I don’t know if the PV15 would turn into a money pit or provide years of trouble free and reliable service. I’ve seen units listed on eBay and forums like Audiogon and US Audio Mart. Is it safe to purchase a unit off eBay or are sellers trying to dump worn out equipment?

I should also ask. What is a fair price for a PV15 and/or Classic 2 or 2se in good condition?

[admin]

The PV15 is a 15 year old unit. So I think it can still have a lot of life left in that unit presuming it was well taken care of. Tubes obviously may need to be replaced. If longevity and reliability is of high importance, clearly a newer unit would be expected to give those values. An ET7 for example may be something to look at.

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Rubs,
Just saw your PM message...

These two particular preamps may seem as a tough choice to decide on but there's quite a significant difference in overall sound. (I've owned both versions, including the third version prior to the Classic 2, which was the Classic 1 in SE version)

Just to summerise:
1. PV15
This was the last in CJ's PV series lineup, no longer in production. It uses the marvellous M8080 Tubes from Mullard and is a very musical and satisfying preamp. The added advantage is the remote function, it will match extremely well with the MV60SE, as most of our previous customers partnered their MV60 amplifiers with the PV14, so the PV15 was considered an upgrade. It is regarded as CJ's entry-level preamp but it's nothing but "entry-level" in sound. It will surpass most other preamps within its price range and this is where its performance really comes through when partnered with high-quality power amps. Overall, it's a great unit and does the job of "pre-amplification" well.

2. The Classic Preamp (Original version 1, also available in SE version):
This is a beautiful preamp! It also uses the Mullard M8080 Tubes (a single pair) and has no remote. It's as simple as it gets! No remote, no balance function, no bells & whistles... just plain level control and well designed input selector, that's it! The SE version is outstanding! It includes Teflon caps, metal foil resistors and takes quite a while to run-in properly. I used this preamp in a very high-quality setup that included the ARTsa, LP260M monoblocks, driving Quads (ESL2905's), ML Ren15A, ML Expression, and SF Elipsa Red. These were all setup for custom orders and I used the Quads with the ARTsa for a while, which had this very Classic preamp as the main control centre. It was fantastic! Very engaing and an immersive sound, one that was very enjoyable for endless hours.

3. The Classic 2/SE:
This version of the Calssic preamp changed quite dramatically, such that it does not use the Mullard M8080's any longer, rather just a single 6922. Therefore, this type of sound is far less colored, more neutral and allows more of the music to flow from the original recording. Very similar in sound to the ET3SE but again without the remote function. The Classic 2 itself is quite good as a standard version but things really begin to take off into that special dimension with the SE version. if I'm correct, this particular version does include Vishay Resistors along with Teflons but I'm not sure if this is a normal SE upgrade or whether the customer has to order Vishays separately. Things may have changed since ownership changed...

All these preamps are mighty fine, it all depends on your listening tastes and musical preferences. Simpler is always the better route, especially with the highest quality parts available. I would "highly" recommend the Classic 2SE but also "very highly" recommend the original Classic SE version that uses the Mullard M8080 tubes, that's just my personal preference. Hence, your personal preferences would obviously vary.

That's about it Rubs, hope all goes well mate.
Cheers, RJ

[SteveFord]

Here's a good site for pricing information:
http://www.kruipen.com/search.html?q=conrad+johnson

[Rubicon15]

Thank you for the link. This is very helpful! I’m definitely going to keep a lookout for a Classic SE or Classic 2SE preamp. I normally keep an eye on Audiogon, Hifi Shark, and US Audio Mart. Should I consider any units posted on eBay?

[AnotherJohnson]

eBay is a reasonable venue and, for the buyer, no worse than the others.

eBay has to collect sales tax, but I think Audiogon includes it too these days. It depends on your state laws … many states have imposed sales tax on “marketplace facilitator” like eBay and Audiogon.

eBay may have less specialized, or less sophisticated sellers who do not really know how to rate what they sell … so, caveat emptor is always in play.

You may find prices are lower if you go to the reseller’s own web site. The Music Room in Erie, Co advertises on eBay, but the price on their web site reflects the lower cost of selling directly, and may be more sales tax friendly.

Edit: this has recently changed. The Music Room pricing appears about the same on eBay as on their website. One difference is the the eBay sales tax policy may be different, depending on your state.

You can communicate effectively through the eBay messaging system. eBay probably offers the most buyer biased transaction protections of all sites.

[Rubicon15]

Great feedback so far! So… do you believe the CJ Classic 2Se will out perform the Briston BP-6? Is the CJ hands down a better preamp? I know it is all in the eyes and ears of the beholder but what do you guys think?

[AnotherJohnson]

I don’t know.

The Bryston BP6 was a no frills competitor to gear that was not typically thought of in the same context as offerings from CJ.

With these older units, which is better can depend on the current state of the gear.

I think an ET3SE might be a better choice than either, but I’m speculating. I have owned the ET3SE and loved its performance enough to replace it with an ET7S1, which was later replaced by the ET7S2.

I have nostalgic feelings about the older units, but my experience has been that the newer models sound more real/transparent to me.

I think RJ’s analysis earlier in this thread is well thought out.

https://forums.whathifi.com/threads/bry ... iew.42414/

http://www.audioreview.com/product/ampl ... ifier.html

We don’t typically think of NAD, Rotel, or other UK designed Orientsl built gear in the same context as any Conrad Johnson offerings.

[Rubicon15]

Well, Another Johnson has certainly got me thinking. I agree, CJ manufactures some incredible audio equipment. In fact, that’s why I’m looking at CJ tube amps and moving away from the Bryston. I like the simplicity of the Classic 2se. However, the ET3se is an interesting option. It looks similar to the PV15. I assume, the ET3se and Classic 2se are great options. I’m thinking the Classic 2se may pair well with my MV60SE. What do the resident experts think?

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Rubs,

Any CJ preamp will "pair well" with any CJ power amp for that matter. There's great synergy between the two. However, this synergy also comes from the rest of the gear; source components, source material, cabling and your room parameters... these elements make up the sum of that synergy.

Therefore, it's not that easy to claim that CJ will surpass the Bryston gear at any point. In a particular system, it may actually not! It all depends on what you're after.

So far, since you've been enjoying the MV60SE very much, of course adding a high quality CJ preamp will further enhance things. Not only enhance but it will change the entire form of presentation, such that it's a tube amp we're talking about, not SS.

Tube preamps have a way of delivering an enveloping sound, it wraps around you, the immersive presence and the musical engagement is top notch! Also adding more depth to the soundstage.

Then again, we have another camp who simply do not prefer this sort of warmth and fuzzy feeling. As if sitting near the fire place on a cold winter night, sipping hot chocolate with marshmallows...
Rather this other audiophile camp prefer the sheer dynamics and drive of superb transient control and LF heft. Sudden thunderous bursts and subtle control in a blink of an eye... such products are Momentum, Relentless, CH Precision and Boulder (very very expensive !), these are all SS. So for a fraction of that cost in these lofty SS gear, this is where brands like Pass Labs, Plinius, Krell, Parasound and Bryston come into play. They offer those SS traits at a far less cost but they can't do what tubes do.

So at the end of the day, to answer your question in plain black & white, isn't really that simple. It all depends on the type of sound you want and what it is you're after.

If so far you really like the MV60SE then by all means partnering it with a nice, simple high quality CJ tube preamp will definitely make a difference, without a doubt! Be ready for a very different type of presentation though, I sincerely hope you like it.

Cheers RJ

[Rubicon15]

I am definitely in the “warm and fuzzy’ camp. Maybe it’s my age but I prefer the aforementioned old school depth, presence, and music wrapping around you vs power and control. Am I married to the MV60SE? That’s a great question. I honestly don’t know. I like the sound it produces and it has plenty of power to drive my B&W 705 s2 sig. speakers. The speakers are definitely transparent but not bright.

If I purchase a CJ tube preamp, I will still have a Bryston DAC and BDP that I use for primarily streaming HD lossless music at this point. I love my vintage CJ DV-2b CD player. The rest of my system is comprised of Nordost Red Dawn speaker cables, MIT Shotgun interconnects, Transparent AES/EBU cable running from the BDP and a couple of Cardas and Silnote GS power cords. I’m also using a Cardas Nautilus power strip. My system is decent, definitely not as nice as many CJ users.

I agree with your previous post. The simplicity of the Classic 2se is very attractive. I’m sure it was designed to produce the highest quality sound with a unique no frills approach. There is a lot to be said for keeping things simple. It’s not about the money. It’s about the engineering and sound the preamp produces.

On the other hand, do I need to move to a preamp like the ET3se to reach that next level of performance?

[AnotherJohnson]

My system is decent, definitely not as nice as many CJ users.
…
On the other hand, do I need to move to a preamp like the ET3se to reach that next level of performance?

Don’t get sucked into system envy .
We like to quote Roberto when he points out that your ears evaluate your system. Most of us enjoy trying new things, listening for subtleties that we can blow up in our own minds into sonic blockbusting improvements.

Regarding moving to the next level, I think a fully broken in ET3SE is a gateway to the next level. It was described in its reviews as a mini GAT. My decision to trade it on an ET7 when the latter was released was driven by desire for full features (like two main out jacks) more than any perceived sonic shortcomings. That, and my CJ dealer’s extremely generous trade in policy at the time.

I muse over trading my LP275Ms for Art 300s and my ET7S2 for a GAT 2, but this is driven by equipment lust rather than sonic logic. Yes, the ART 300 + GAT 2 would sound even better (so JF tells me), along with a pair of $200k+ speakers. But … seriously … the potential incremental improvement from where I am today does not justify the expenditure in my evaluation algorithm.

I really think that once your system can resolve all threads, after that it’s all debatable. The bad news is that you’re often unsure just how far you’ve gotten in untangling the threads. You have to learn to listen for mud. When it’s gone, you’re close enough.

[Rubicon15]

I will never reach the level of those “bleeding edge” audiophiles. I’m not interested in seeking that level of performance or spending that much cash. My goal is pretty simple. I want a system that provides a transparent and full sound that surrounds the listener, one that pulls you into the music. I simply want to enjoy the music that is being played. I’m not chasing the next best thing or trying to impress anyone. I definitely don’t have system envy. If I did, I would have moved beyond the MV60SE a long time ago. I am seeking a system that is pleasing to my ears at an affordable price.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think you would be well served by any of the CJ tube preamps. Drawing you into the music is their wheelhouse.

[Truth71]

I think you would be well served by any of the CJ tube preamps. Drawing you into the music is their wheelhouse.

Ditto

[Rubicon15]

Special thanks to everyone for your candid feedback. I will start to keep a lookout for a Classic 2se or ET3se. I prefer the Classic 2se. I’m attracted to it’s simplicity, engineering, and build quality. It weighs one pound more than the ET3 - interesting stat in addition to the caps etc. If I see one listed in great condition, that was well maintained and cared for over the years, I will pull the trigger. Feel free to message me if you see one listed.

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Rubs,

Ok, now I understand the rest of your gear. Well that certainly looks like a great setup overall. Especially with the CJ DV2B digital playback system and the Nordost cables, that's a pretty fine system right there!

I still miss the DV2B, it was outstanding! At one point, during multiple cap failure in the PFR, I sent it off for service uogrades and infact I used the DV2B direct as a preamp. It has enough voltage to actively drive power amplifiers direct. The sound was clearer but it didn't quite have that depth and spacial cues as compared to a proper line-stage as the front end.

The DV2B was powerful enough to drive my previous Manley Reference 350's, and these were driving mighty Infinity's IRS 1B's. The only thing is compared to a dedicated preamp, you cannot set volume precisely with the DV2B's digital ladder controlled level setting. Levels of dB between steps was quite a jump! So obviously the preamp made more sense, plus switching sources.

Now, I would say yes! Having that particular setup and the source being the legendary DV2B, adding a high quality CJ tube preamp will enhance your system's performance even further, without a doubt!

Good stuff mate, go for it and do let us know which one you decide on.
Just a quick note; I didn't give any mention to the ET3SE because that was not part of the initial comparison. Apart from those three I mentioned, the ET3SE will no doubt be an excellent match with the MV60SE. However, just keep in mind, from the Classic 2/SE series and onwards to the ET series, CJ now uses the 6922 tube as their standard.

They don't use the Mullard M8080 in any of their current production preamps. Like I said before, the Mullards used as an input gain stage sound quite different to the more neutral sounding 6922...

If it's possible to get hold of any Classic series preamp prior to the Classic 2 and then compare it to the Classic 2 or ET3SE, you'll know what I'm referring to. Hopefully that would also help you to realise which type of sound you prefer. The ET3SE also has remote function, similar to the PV15.

Hope all goes well, cheers
RJ

[Rubicon15]

Well, I found a used ET3SE in excellent condition 9/10 and purchased it today. It still has the original tube installed. I need everyone’s help one last time. I would like to order a new 6922 tube while I’m waiting for the unit to arrive. I called CJ and they recommend the Gold Lion as an upgrade. Any feedback regarding the most reliable and sonically superior sounding tube will be greatly appreciated.

[AnotherJohnson]

Great!

https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/va ... 1830510341

[Rubicon15]

Thanks for the link. CJ uses the ELECTRO-HARMONIX 6922 as a “standard” spec tube. They recommend the Gold Lion as an upgrade. I don’t know if the standard EH tube that CJ uses has gold pins. I can pic up a platinum version of the Gold Lion at Upscale for $55, Kevin’s Stash for $65. The EH is $35. CJ quoted me $80 for the Gold Lion and $40 for the EH.