Premier 16 LS2 replace vs restore?

[Soro86]

Looking for suggestions- I have had this amazing preamp for 10+ years and still sounds great to me. In the past 2 years I have upgraded my speakers (ML 11A) , my amp (Mcintosh MC1502) and my TT. The oldest pieces are my phono pre Acoustic research PH3 SE and the Premier. All sounds great but trying to plan ahead if the 16 breaks down. Is the Premier 16 with its 20 yo caps and pieces limiting the overall performance of the system now?

I am considering auditioning a Mcintosh preamp like the C22 w/ onboard phono. Or do I restore the lovely 16? I was talking to the rep at Backert labs that did mods for CJ but said they don't work on the 16 anymore. I have not reached out to CJ regarding restoring the 16 and what that would cost.

Thanks!

[admin]

I think you may get a little biased opinion but I would personally much rather use a Premier 16 vs a Mcintosh C22, all things being equal. I think it's hard to give an objective answer if we think that the Premier is having component failure issues. If you like the sound of the Premier, I think having a quote for a refurb would be the first place to start. That at least will give you ballpark figure on price comparison.

I don't want to knock Mcintosh too much but I've always felt that many of their components are overpriced for what you get. They've done an excellent marketing job and I think that has worked out for them well in terms of increasing their price. That's not always so great for the buyer. But that's just my opinion and I know McIntosh has a die hard following that may disagree.

[Soro86]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am now aware of the strong feelings regarding newer Mcintosh products. I think I broke Roberto's heart- kidding. He is so passionate about CJ. I don't rule out going to a CJ amp in the future. For now, I am very happy with MC1502 and it's sonic qualities. I'm sure the 16 is part of that!
Thanks again!

[AnotherJohnson]

In either case, you are probably going for a look and feel rather than a sound signature.

I think your system would demonstrate more synergy with a newish C22. And you may also like a pair of 275s run in mono (if that’s still a feature with the new ones).

[AnotherJohnson]

I just visited the McIntosh Labs web site.

My impression is that McIntosh have been busy … it is a fascinating product line. My local high end dealer is a McIntosh specialist, so I’m going to have to take a listen to the modern line up.

[Soro86]

Heresy! Seriously, let us know what you think. I have a friend who is a diehard Mcintosh fan, especially the vintage equipment. There are a lot of different opinions regarding the newer lines, quality, etc.

[Big Dog RJ]

Macs newer offerings are ok... just about.

CJ is in a totally different league mate, completely different level! There's absolutely no comparison whatsoever!

Restoring CJ's vintage gear will cost quite a bit but that's because CJ will restore it to full spec, it's the price in quality that you pay for. Afterall, it truly is top quality.

Mac...meh no thanks.
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[Soro86]

Appreciate your thoughts. I really plan to keep the Premier and will reach out to CJ regarding restoration. In the meantime, I'm going to try a Backert preamp and at some point a Mac. It's part of the fun right??

Thanks!!

[AnotherJohnson]

I went through the vintage tube Mac stage as that era was closing out. Gordon Gow was still alive and he would visit my local dealer and host an annual clinic to assure that everyone’s vintage Mac gear was meeting factory specs. He had technicians and parts on site and would do repairs on the test bench, often for free.

There is something mesmerizing about all those lights, meters and switches.

It is a cut above the typical Pioneer, Onkyo, Technics gear of those days.

Nevertheless, if the goal is to get close to live music, as wonderful as the Mac tube era was for its day, it falls woefully short of the things that pushed it aside (Audio Research, Conrad Johnson as best examples).

Trying things is part of the fun … but it can become a game of musical chairs if you’re the one left holding the unit when the music stops.

Vintage Mac gear has continued to appreciate due to lust for McIntosh in the Orient. You could make some money trading in McIntosh. Or you could be the one who buys high. Caveat emptor. But this is always true.

I was impressed on the McIntosh website the other day because of the large range.

I have not had a chance to go for a demo yet.

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day mate,

If I recall, your speakers are ML hybrid stats. These are capable of high quality transparency and fine level of detail. With careful placement they will disappear leaving a superb combination of holographic imaging and fantastic depth in soundstage.

These traits in transparency, detail, soundstage depth, resolution and musicality are the hallmarks of CJ gear. Therefore, you're about half way there... with the CJ Prem 16LS2. My sincere advice is a two step approach:

1. A full restoration on the Prem16LS2
2. A CJ power amplifier

Since you already use a Mac power amp, things are quite different in terns of those aspects I mentioned. CJ gear partnered with high quality speakers are magical, they will transport you to the live event!

Having said that, it's not only CJ that do this. Others, such as Lamm Audio, Kondo, VTL, ARC, VAC, NAT, Audio Note and so on... this is the level CJ competes in. Mac is no where in this league but yet they're such a large company, buying out nearly every other brand, people they think they're top notch.

Any day, any time, take any "Premier" product of CJ and open it up, and compare it to any Mac gear. You'll realise straight away the difference in high quality parts, the simplicity of circuit layouts and the rock solid power supplies used in every component made by CJ.

What you have right now, is a "Premier" standard product. It may mean nothing much to you now but wait till you restore it to full spec and partner it with a top quality CJ power amp, and then have a listen to your Martin Logan's.

There's just no comparison between the two.

Mac will always have those bells & whistles, blue meters on just about anything, and over a hundred buttons on their faceplates plus knobs... it's all cosmetic and far too much circuitry going on inside. The more wires, the more gizmos, the more features,... = less purity of the source signal.
That source signal goes through a jungle and a forest before reaching your stats!

With CJ gear, it's pretty plain and simple, the shortest signal paths, the simplest layout, single gain stages, and the highest quality parts, will yield far batter results. It's plain physics!
Those other top brands do this as well, and that's the quality gear you would want to associate your fine stats with. So why compromise?

However, this restoration and finding another CJ power amplifier is going to cost. How much? I can't say but it's truly worth when you already own Martin Logan stats.

It's upto you mate.
Let us know what you decide on, and hope it all goes well.
Cheers, RJ

[Truth71]

Old Bud Fried saying: "I've often wondered how adding another component into a signal chain IMPROVES the "originality" of what's being passed through it."

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes, it makes no sense. More features means you’re paying for a lot of stuff that titillates the eyes rather than the ears, or caters to your uncertainty about what you really want.

McIntosh and Audio Research both go down the features path.

Regarding power supplies and transformers though, I’ve never looked inside a Mac or AR and thought they were poorly done. They’re not. But CJ is the master of simplicity and focus.

[Joe Appierto]

I've never heard much less owned McIntosh gear so I can't opine on the company's products. They do have a huge following. That having been said you can take what AJ and RJ say to the bank. Roberto as well. I have owned the Pr. 16LS2 partnered with the Pr. 140 first with QUAD 989 and then ML Electromotion ESL hybrids. In both cases my system sang.

Edit: I just read the comments made by AJ, RJ, and Roberto regarding aftermarket fuses. Do their opinions match mine? No. Does that make their comments invalid? No. It just means their experience bases are different from mine.

[AnotherJohnson]

Edit: I just read the comments made by AJ, RJ, and Roberto regarding aftermarket fuses. Do their opinions match mine? No. Does that make their comments invalid? No. It just means their experience bases are different from mine.

RJ said he could hear the difference, although these aren’t his exact words. My impression of what he wrote is that he preferred the OEM fuses.

I make no comment about them aside from my obvious amusement. I can hear solder differences, and I can hear solder technique differences … but both are nearly always negative if comparing CJ OEM to someone else’s.

Maybe if I bought several fuses I could do a comparo … but I’m in the camp that subscribes to “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

[Soro86]

Thanks for the thoughtful advice. I am in agreement. I know I would regret letting the 16 go. I will pursue the restoration and enjoy the Mac. It really is a fine amp. But I will be on the lookout for a Classic 120 SE, as Roberto recommended.
Appreciate your insight and passion for CJ!
Cheers!

[AnotherJohnson]

https://www.conradjohnsonowners.com/vie ... php?t=2034

It was it this thread (Above link) that RJ compared fuses.

Sometimes the same ideas bleed over into more than one thread.

FWIW, I am firmly in the Roberto’s camp … if you hear it in your system and you prefer it, who can argue?

[Soro86]

Update - I was able to audition a brand new Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme in my system. Took absolute control, extended bass, improved 3D vocals, etc. After 4 days I decided to keep it. It's a very understated piece but it delivers where it counts.
FWIW, at the dealer, I heard a Rhumba paired w/ highly modded Premier 8's by Mr. Backert. Very impressive!
Happy holidays.

[AnotherJohnson]

That’s great!
It’s sooooo nice when stuff comes together.
Enjoy! And Merry Christmas!

[admin]

Cool. Looks like a great unit. I like those big toggle switches and retro silver brushed metal.

[AnotherJohnson]

Although it is less useful info today than it was a month ago, as you can see below, the Premier 16 is on the list of preamps that CJ will not only work on, but also will upgrade.

From their web site:

Preamplifiers
ACT2 to ACT2 S2 (includes C1 Upgrade)
ART to ART Series 3 (includes C1 Upgrade)
ART Series 2 to ART Series 3 (includes C1 Upgrade)
Premier 16 to Premier 16 S2
Premier 17LS to Premier 17LS2 (includes C1 Upgrade)
ET3 to ET3SE (includes C1 Upgrade)
GAT to GATs2
ET7 Series 1 to ET7 Series 2
Classic 2 to Classic 2SE