Various CJ Upgrades

[DayRadebaugh]

Would appreciate forum comments on a couple of issues.

1. Have a pair of Premier 8's. One fine, other blows a tube. Owned since new, cosmetically both are very good. Both need to be overhauled, and perhaps enhanced. Have been talking to the factory about their total overhaul package, at $5,200 for the pair. New caps, tubes and total checkout. I don't necessarily have an immediate use for these amps, since I have a pair of Ayre MX-R Twenty's driving my Magnepan 30.7's, but would love to hear the CJ's on the Maggies. Otherwise, would sell or keep these amps. They have been excellent units, and sounded great for 30 yrs. In my view, a real classic.
a. can these be upgraded to 8A status, and is it worth it?
b. is there anyone else who repairs/mods these units?
c. any other mods I should consider?

2. Also have an original Premier 14 that I sold as working, but it didn't survive the shipping.

a. any value to having this unit fixed, perhaps for sale?

Thanks

[admin]

1) Not sure if they can be upgraded to 8a status but CJ would be the ones to ask. As for the cost of repair, which is considerable at over $5k, it's a tough decision. Currently I would classify it as non-functional if it's blowing fuses. Also, at that age, replacing the internal components is not just a fix, but really a massive upgrade. I run a pair of ART monoblocks with my magnepan 20.1's and I absolutely love the sound. A good CJ amp and planar speakers are something very special to me. So for $5k you are getting some incredible quality and essentially new amps. Definitely sounds reasonable to me. Now if you never plan to use them, then the question is how much can you sell them for as the true cost is $5k minus the potential sell price.

2) Similar argument. I suppose the value of the Premier 14 is repair price minus selling price. Is that worth it?

[DayRadebaugh]

Agree fully on your comment about good tube amps on planars. I heard them once, and really liked the combination.

[AnotherJohnson]

From a purely economic point of view, I think your best option is to sell them “as is” with full disclosure. That will net you some cash out, but leave you ampless.

From a nostalgia point of view, putting $5200 into them ought to bring some serious nostalgia.

They’re very nice amps. I do not think it would be easy to sell them for $5200, so if you did sell them, you’d be out some cash and ampless.

If it were me, I’d seriously consider having CJ do their best, and then I’d use them in a second system.

[Joe Appierto]

Actually, he wrote:

"I don't necessarily have an immediate use for these amps, since I have a pair of Ayre MX-R Twenty's driving my Magnepan 30.7's,"

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes, I saw that. Fine option indeed.

Ampless in the CJ sense.

I would feel underdressed if I didn’t have a pair of CJ monoblocks somewhere …

[DayRadebaugh]

The 8A version is described as follows:

The Premier Eight-A added a noise filter to the bias indicator circuit, upgraded resistors and capacitors in the voltage amplifier and bias power supplies, and improved input wiring.

These upgrades seem fairly modest, at least to me, but they command a much higher price on the used market.

As to "I would feel underdressed if I didn’t have a pair of CJ monoblocks somewhere …" I get your point. I used these amps on the woofer towers of Infinity Betas, and they sang!

[AnotherJohnson]

If not for the nostalgia factor, I would not fool with upgrading the 8s. From an economic point of view, it wouldn’t be a winner. Better to put that money into factory refurbished LP275Ms, or something more recent.

Admin got a killer deal on his Arts. I’ve never seen another close … but even at $8k plus whatever you could get out of the 8s, I think you’d be better off selling as is. Of course if you really don’t need them, and you like the Ayres well, just selling them as is, probably for a couple of thousand bucks, at least you wouldn’t be stuck with extra boat anchors.

[AnotherJohnson]

The cost to upgrade is explainably high. CJ uses premium parts. Often they’re purchased in batches from highly regarded suppliers. The bench fees aren’t bad … but the materials list is difficult to swallow if you don’t value the premium parts. And then there’s the warranty that CJ typically offers when they do a complete refurbishment or upgrade. That’s worth something too.

[roberto]

Hola DayRadebaugh,

Yes, the updated is very expensive. You will not recognise your power amps for good quality sound once you have done the upgrade. The signal to noise ratio will improve, giving more inner detail and the micro-dynamics are very impressive. Also, the overall sound will be worth every penny.

I have a friend here who made this upgrade, and after three months he was not too happy, and suddenly the quality came out...and now he is enjoying the system as never before. His comments are very value. He owns a Sonus Faber speakers, and he is claiming that he is very satisfied with the results.

New electronic components are doing a great job and improving the sound quality. Conrad Johnson is using the best that the Standard Industry is offering. These components are not low price goods, the good thing is that we can enjoy the fantastic quality, the saver, the delight in, the luxuriate in of the music.

Happy listening!

[DayRadebaugh]

Thanks for the thoughts. In terms of economics, I have the following Blue Book information: average retail for Premier 8's is $4,200/pr, for 8A's is $5,900/pr. The data is included/attached. Is there any reliability to these Blue Book values in your experience?



There is a huge nostalgia factor here, and they just sound darn good. So I'm leaning toward the upgrade route. If I ended up selling them, I'd lose money, but not a huge amount, and would have the pleasure of hearing them again on something.

I will comment that I'm not having a huge amount of luck in my conversations with the factory. Anyone else have this experience?

[DayRadebaugh]

Heard back from factory. There is no upgrade to the 8A version of the Premier 8. Secondly, my premier 14 is useful only for parts. CJ cannot source any 6GK5 tubes for them. Anyone interested in a parts Premier 14?

[admin]

Doesn't look that bad in all honesty. I would have to presume that a completely refurbished/upgraded Premier 8 would be worth substantially more than an "average used unit" that most likely has components that are 3 decades old.

The problem you face is that currently you have a non-working unit so the sell price is going to be very low. In other words, you are getting much more bang for your buck with the CJ refurb than the average Premier 8 owner with a working unit.

Still, $5k is a lot of money and you already have another working amp in your system so this of course is a luxury. I think this really comes down to how much you like the sound of those Premier 8's? They are great amps, no question about it.

[AnotherJohnson]

All blue books suffer time lags, so they’re never current. Watch the ads and see what sells and what doesn’t.

The other issue is that on a rare item, like an exotic vintage amp, there aren’t enough sales every month to give a statistically accurate estimate of value.

Also, there are regional market differences that audio blue books don’t effectively consider.

So … the blue book may be high, low, or spot on. But who knows. It’s most useful role is in arguing/negotiating with a buyer or seller. Each will try to use the book value as a lever.

In the end, lots of sales come about either because the seller is desperate (as in the case of Admin’s Arts) or the buyer has irrational exuberance (and pays high to scratch his itch).

I watch CJ used sales. There’s never a large advertised inventory. High priced stuff sits. Deals go quickly.

[admin]

I particularly favor the desperate,... especially when they are in driving distance of my home.

[Big Dog RJ]

That sounds about right coming from CJ HQ... as they wouldn't have the resources or parts for older gear. If I'm correct, JF was one of the key team members on the design team with the Prem8A project. The Prem8 were the original design, the young JF and crew took it a step further.

When I first heard the Prem8's, we all thought great! Then we ordered in the Prem8A's and wow! So we decided to keep those in our primary reference system driving the Diva's. Definitely a marvellous combination and one that lasted a few decades with us.

$5200 to fully upgrade both monoblocks is about right. Especially, given the cost of upgrades and parts, plus labour. Two things that I see as a concern though:

1. I'm not sure if the OP is really passionate about CJ gear (although used for 3 decades) but time passed and he has revetred to Ayre. This means to me that CJ is secondary and is about to be dropped. If the CJ gear was so special and appreciated the way we all look after our gear then these amplifiers would have been well looked after.
They are rock solid, unflinching accuracy and the maintenance is not a big deal. Just keep an eye on the tubes and parts required, and they're good to go as long as they're well maintained. It's not hard to find a good tech once you have the schematics.

2. The OP mentions that one works fine but the other blows a tube...? First time I've heard of "tubes blowing in CJ gear."
Is this actually a tube blowing or a fuse blowing... in which case a full tube replacement kit is required, along with a full service. The required parts can be sourced and fitted part by part as necessary. It's not necessary to do a full overhaul. In which case might as well go for a different amplifier. (Which has already been done, Ayre.. ) If the Prem8's were in full operation then it would have been possible to experience that combination with the Maggie 30.7's but it seems like they were probably not used for a while when minor problems occurred... and now the Ayre's are sounding great but what would these Maggie's sound like if the CJ's were working... Items that aren't used will deteriorate and as time passes by things get expensive.

If it was me, I would do whatever it takes to fully restore these superb amplifiers, they were CJ's top of the line and still remain as a true top end classic! They're one of a kind, and only a few with a true passion for CJ will understand what I'm trying to say.

No disrespect to the OP, that's not my intention, just saying it as it is. I hope I haven't offended you in anyway. Peace.
Cheers, RJ

[DayRadebaugh]

RJ

Appreciate the thoughts. You're right; I'm ambivalent about this issue. I certainly enjoyed these amps while they were working.

You do raise an interesting point, which is simply to fix the broken one. I cannot honestly recall the circumstances of their failure, but the 1st attempt at fixing involved replacing 1 6550, which I got from CJ. Whether it was a tube failure or a fuse blow I honestly cannot recall. To the best of my memory, the on/off switch clicked off after a couple of minutes use of the new tube. I suppose that the little LED lit up under the same tube socket, indicating failure.

Any insight appreciated.

And yes, they were very well cared for and fairly low hours.

[AnotherJohnson]

You’ve got a full set of good tubes and fuses in the working one.

Do some simple swaps and I’ll bet you can solve your own problems for less than $100.

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! I see... now it looks like there are a few things to check out, as AJ has very rightly pointed out.

Suspect it was just a bad output tube... which was replaced.
Typical lifespan under normal operating hours, CJ recommends about 3000hrs, about 2-3 years if used everyday. I'm also thinking about that LED near the tube socket lighting up, is not a tube failure, rather that's the bias indicator. This means you need to reset the bias for that particular tube/ LED that remains lit.

If a fuse blows, that usually means a weak/bad output tube, and there are separate LEDs on top of the chassis (located right next to the fuse holder) that light up separately to those bias pots... I'm thinking that you would already know this, so my apologies if I'm been annoying.

Looks and sounds like a pretty easy fix. I sincerely don't think these amplifiers would ever require a full overhaul unless some major electrical short-out happened on your AC mains grid... ex, like Robbo experienced when some drunken idiot hit a light pole on the street. Even then under those circumstances his Classic 120se still worked!

Like I said and we're all saying, these amplifiers are solid stuff mate, they don't flinch even under the harshest conditions on speaker loads. These are the Premier 8's, they are a mighty force to reckon with.

I suggest, if possible get hold of a good tech in your area or somewhere, have them check out the amps from top to bottom for what it's worth. They'll probably charge a nominal fee, your bad 6550 tube will be replaced and whatever other small tubes required. The only thing is those main output fuses are somewhat special, and specific to the design. Hence, CJ are the main supplier, although you can very easily access other suppliers. Just make sure you get the right fuse type. These are heavy duty ceramic fuses capable of holding very high voltages. So you must get the correct type.

I think once this is sorted out, you'll be enjoying those fine tunes in no time, and the 30.7's will be in another dimension. I can feel the force...
Woof!!! RJ

[Truth71]

Lots of 6GK5 tubes out there. For example try Upscale Audio,
Brent Jesse. Etc