CJ Pre Amp to go with Premier 12 Monoblocks.

[goonybird]

I fancy a matching pre ampto go with my CJ Premier 12Monoblocks.
Doesn't need phono so with or without.
More that I want it period matched. EG what would have likely to have been sold with them originally?
Looked at some Premier Pre Amps but feel the PV range eg PV5 onwards look a better visual match.
Any recommendations.

[admin]

Nothing wrong with the PV line (I use a PV12 in my system). One thing you have to keep in mind is that many of those units are pushing 30+ years. They may need some updates like recapping, etc... which can get costly. If you have the budget, you may want to consider something newer in the CJ line.

[AnotherJohnson]

The Premier 10 or Premier 14 were the top CJ preamps of those days. Better still, a Premier 16 would also be a good contemporary choice. These all have different looks about them.

And, of course, the PV12 would also be an appropriate period correct choice.

You can go to the CJ web site and look under the vintage products page to see pictures and specs.

Virtually all preamps from that era and earlier will need recapping, possibly for the second time in the PV product line.

The bigger problem with 30 year old preamps is the relays, switches and potentiometers. In many cases, OEM replacement parts are no longer available.

If I wanted a unit contemporary to the Premier 12, I think I’d look for a nice Premier 16. A Premier 14 would be my second choice.

There is at least one recent thread on this, so you might dig around on this board and see what others have said.

[Truth71]

The PV 10 BL is close and as for newer perhaps a Premier 17.

I understand the theoretical issue with caps and don't want to open a hornets nest, but from the earliest days parts quality in CJ products was stellar,the designs were considerate in not beating parts up and the case can be made that although electrolytics may need to be refreshed, polypropylene and polystyrene ( let alone Teflon) caps could outlive us all. My son has an MV-55 and a PV 10B that still sound spectacular.

Does anyone have stats about what percentage of CJ products that were ever produced are still in use? I suspect it may be in the upper reaches of the industry, and the more I learn about Jeff's parts quality and design parameters, the better this figure may become as time goes by.

[AnotherJohnson]

You don’t see CJ drawing attention to polymer caps in the audio circuit path until the Premier 16. Even then, it’s polystyrene.

Certainly Polymer caps are far more long lived than electrolyics.

If you’re lucky, you might find a specimen from that era that has been upgraded. I had my PV 8 upgraded to Teflon, for example. It’s out there somewhere.

Any of the pre Premier 16 preamps are likely to be ready for either first or second recapping, depending on whether or not the first recapping was done with polymer caps.

On the switches, pots, and relays .... CJ is not magic and cannot produce NOS for all the need. I know this from first hand experience, not from “those guys on the internet.”

In fact, in some cases, like relays, even NOS may have aged out ... and be no better than an unreliable original component. Again, I know this from first hand experience, not conjecture.

There are a lot of functioning CJ units still in service. Many have been molested along the way. People say CJ repairs and upgrades are expensive. I think they’re fairly priced.

YMMV

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, until I got into this parts availability issue, I happily enjoyed my PV series preamps. Once I was forced to enter the 21st Century, I fell in love with the sound of the more modern units with ever better parts specs.

The ART and the premier 16 look like the beginning of the new era to me.

[Truth71]

“— Introduced April, 1983 | Premier Three-revised June, 1986
The Premier Three superseded the previous state-of-the-art Premier Two preamplifier.
This was the first preamplifier to feature the exclusive use of conrad-johnson’s proprietary CJD polystyrene film capacitors throughout the audio circuits and related power supplies.”

[goonybird]

Thanks. Am aware of age of some units. Have 50 years experience rebuilding, restoring, repairing Hifi (self taught)
Caps do not always need replacing. This seems to be flavor of the month on forums. eg have a 1970's WEM Copycat and the power smoothing electrolytics are fine, so best left alone. I don't intend doing anything to CJ Prem 12 as previous owner just had a full service done and have reports on condition of tubes etc.

[Timo62]

The Premier 12 mono blocks are great amps and built very well. They were introduced in 1993 , so any Premier level preamp that was out at that time would have been matched with the Premier 12s. You could really use any CJ preamp. Within the Premier preamp line up available at that time would have been the premier 10 that was introduced in 1992 and the Premier 14 in 1995. The Premier 16 was out a little later in 1998 and the Premier 17 in 2000
Already mentioned in this post is that you can research all of CJs vintage gear on their webpage under Vintage Products.

I was just talking to Jeff Fischel at CJ about the caps in my Premier 14. I am dropping it off for service this week. I was curious if it would be recommended to replace that caps at this time considering the age of the unit. He had told me that the caps in the Premier 14 should be fine for decades. I would have thought it would have been a good ideal to recap the unit at this time myself. I will be talking to Jeff in person this week, so I will report back if I hear anything different in regard to the caps.

The Teflon cap upgrade is available for the premier 14 of course , but I am really looking to keep the unit original.

[Joe Appierto]

The Teflon cap upgrade is available for the premier 14 of course , but I am really looking to keep the unit original.

Not to mention the expense. I inquired years ago how much it'd be to get the Teflon caps for my 16LS2 that I had at the time and was told by Ed it'd be $4,500. That was a show stopper for me. I can't imagine it would be any less now.

[Timo62]

Joe,

$4,500 would have been an expensive upgrade for the Teflon Caps. I could be wrong , but I thought I remembered Jeff quoting a price of under $2,000 for the Premier 14 Teflon Cap upgrade. I will reconfirm this price when I talk to him this week. I am not looking to do the upgrade , but it could be helpful to other CJ owners.

[Joe Appierto]

I may misremember, it's been some time but in the case of the 16LS2 I believer it involved replacing 24 or 26 caps. That sounded like quite a few to me but I never opened the casework and I'm pretty hopeless at reading schematics.

[AnotherJohnson]

If the price to upgrade to Teflon is $4500, it might be a good incentive to consider a trade for an ET7S2.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, the best polystyrene caps from 1983 would be ready for their second R&R.

If you listen to an old unit over the course of its life, and you’re happy with it as it ages, it may just be because you’re adjusting as you go along. I know this happens to me. I am generally perfectly happy with what I have until a comparison shows improvement.

The Teflon caps have the reverse characteristic. They improve slowly during hundreds of hours of break in. If you like the sound at the start, you may love the sound down the road.

A lot of people can hear the difference between fully broken in polymer caps of the assorted types. It depends on the state of the rest of the system though.

Changes in my old PV 11, MF2200 system, Thiel CS2, HW19, Souther Triquartz, Clearaudio Veritas system, which was quite nice for its day, were audible... but the whole system was literally generations behind anything from the modern era. Sort of like comparing Galileo’s telescope to the repaired Hubble.

[MattHooper]

My Premier 16 LS2 sounds fabulous with my Premier 12s. Liquid, grain-free, super low noise floor.

For years I'd used a locally built tube pre amp which was very good. But I also kept trying other ones, including passives as well as trying DACs with volume controls (like the Meitner and Benchmark DACs) so they could bypass a pre-amp directly in to the Premier 12s.

I was always initially captivated by the super silent "black background" noise floor of bypassing pre-amps, the lack of grain, the sense of absolute clarity. But I always found the tone changed in a way I didn't care for - darkening, didn't have the vivid upper life like when I had my pre-amp in the chain. Also there was a slight loss of density and aliveness, and power. So I always went back to the pre-amps as the best trade off.

When I received my CJ Premier 16LS2 it was a revelation. It had a similar super low noise floor, lack of grain, purity and clarity like bypassing a pre-amp, except it maintained that "CJ glow" so the system still had the tonality I sought. It's just gorgeous with tone.

If I had any knock on the Premier 16LS2, at least in my system, it's that it's not quite as filled out and dense and dynamic sounding as my previous pre-amp. Just a tiny bit more wimpy sounding. It's not something that sticks out on it's own, only in comparisons. But I'm happier with the 16LS2.

[goonybird]

So just picked up a late model PV10A with built in Phono Section.
Love it.
Now to compare the CJ phono section with my EAR834P

[admin]

Congrats on the PV10. Let us know your thoughts when you have some time on it.

[goonybird]

Spent an afternoon camparing PV10A Phono and my EAR 834P into a line input. Thankfully the CJ phono section sounds very similar to the EAR so it means I can go with my intention of using the PV10 and selling the EAR834P. So much so I put the Audio Technica Art9xa back on the TT through the EAR MC3 SUT into PV10 phono stage and resulted in a very pleasant sound.
*still think the Audio technica Art9XA doesn't sound any "better/different" than my Reson Reca MM (Goldring 1040X)
Is that sacrilidge?

[AnotherJohnson]

*still think the Audio technica Art9XA doesn't sound any "better/different" than my Reson Reca MM (Goldring 1040X)
Is that sacrilidge?

No. Your ears are your best guide. Never get hung up on what others, including reviewers, might praise or condemn.

Enjoy your system!

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Goonybird,

Was wondering how you're going with the PV10?
I've used so many preamps from CJ and finally arrived at one particular system that provides a custom sort of sound for me that is. So with preamps you can sort of tailor make the final end sound you're after.

For what it's worth, there were some very truly special preamps that I still adore from CJ, this list as follows:
1. ACT2
2. ART
3. Prem 16LS
4. Classic 1SE & 2SE
5. PV15

Out of the numerous ones I've had and owned, these are my favourite 5 of all time, and now I'm using the CT5 after having used the ACT2 and ART for a while. I still prefer the ART & ACT2 over the GAT for some reason... it's just a personal preference. The GAT is however superb in every way but it has a certain neutrality to the sound which for me is too squeaky clean...

If you get a chance, finances permitting, I highly recommend you try either the Classic pre or the PV15, they're fabulous! True value for money and will match with your Prem12's extremely well. The Classic, very similar to your pv10 doesn't have remote nor balance control but is very refined. It uses the Mullards M8080 tubes, highly engaging and very musical. Similar tubes used in the PV15.

Cheers mate, do let us know how it goes.
Enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ