Kirmuss vs the rest?

[AnotherJohnson]

Michael Fremmer is on record with the recommendation that, if you have 20 to 30 minutes available to use it, the Kirmuss record cleanerand restorer does work.

They can be had for less than $1000.

I’ve used the Nitty Gritty And VPI vacuum type cleaners for years and been very happy with them. But I am wondering if the Kirmuss could magically improve some of the records in my collection.

Has anyone tried the Kirmuss system? If yes, what’s your verdict?

[admin]

Haven't heard records cleaned on the Kismuss but I like the technology. It's basically an ultrasonic cleaner. Anybody that has used an ultrasonic cleaner knows they work really well to clean small particulate matter. It's completely non-abrasive and perfectly suited for vinyl. If vinyl was my primary listening medium this is the technology I would choose to employ for cleaning.

Some may say $1000 is a lot for this. And one wanted to go cheap, you can buy an ultrasonic cleaner that has a 6 inch deep and 12 inch wide basin for under $200 from amazon and you could suspend the record with a pencil and turn it by hand. Having the motorized and perfectly designed setup is the other $800. You are paying for convenience, and that is not wrong. Especially if you have a lot of records to clean.

[AnotherJohnson]

Probably the Audio Desk is the way to go for convenience, but that makes $1000 look like chump change.

If you buy into Kirmuss’s technical explanations, which appear to be consistent with Audio Desk’s, the spacing, frequencies, and angles of incidence are important.

He has an elaborate set of water prep guidelines too.

The whole thing is far from convenient in my view.

Several years back, Harry Weisfeld was sharing different home brew ultrasonic ideas, as were others on the VPI forum.

I know that he was doing research on the subject, and sharing through “Harry’s Corner” in that forum.

Edit: there is a long thread in Harry’s corner today.

VPI appears to have resettled on the vacuum approach, which with the advent of the HW 16 and Harry Pearson’s strong recommendation, launched VPI industries.

They are now selling their Cyclone and it has a quiet vacuum, quiet and reversing motor, and build quality so solid that one of the test samples was actually kicked down the stairs and came up fully functional. It is pricey.

I have owned HW 17 and HW 16.5 machines. I’ve been thinking about the Cyclone. They’re made in the USA. And I’ve mentioned before that I am a fan of both Harry and Mat.

Kirmuss is quite a technically focused guy. It is not clear that he’s a vinyl aficionado, although it would be hard to argue that he is not a vinyl restoration expert.

Upscale Audio has a special edition of the basic Kirmuss machine. It will do 3 12” LPs and a 45 at one time. The regular version will do 2 LPs, a 10”, and a 45.

The process may take as much as 25 minutes in 5 minute increments, depending on the state of the record. After 35 minutes the water is too hot to continue without a cool down.

The Audio Desk is more automated but also more expensive. Audio Desk criticizes Kirmuss for recirculating the removed detritus rather than removing it or filtering it.

I could take Fremer’s endorsement as gospel. But on many other issues related to vinyl, I disagree with his advice. Overall I think his advice is valuable though. He appears to be vacuuming first, and then restoring as/if needed. Seems like good advice.

[admin]

The Audio Desk is more automated but also more expensive. Audio Desk criticizes Kirmuss for recirculating the removed detritus rather than removing it or filtering it.

Although this is a valid argument, my experience with ultrasonic cleaners for other applications is that the "dirt" seems to dilute out so if you have a rather large tub (as you would with a record cleaner, recontamination would be a minor issue. You can also rinse the record in pure water after. This is what I do with my cheapo spin cleaner setup. Ideally circulating new water with each cleaning is the best option. Also, If one wanted to do more water circulation you can always use a cleaning solution with the first pass and then just regular water for a 2nd.

I could take Fremer’s endorsement as gospel. But on many other issues related to vinyl, I disagree with his advice. Overall I think his advice is valuable though. He appears to be vacuuming first and then restoring as/if needed. Seems like good advice.

I've read and listened to Fremer quite a bit. I think overall he offers good advice. I think this is one of those things that you can argue back and forth. The truth is that both a good vacuuming machine and an ultrasonic cleaner is probably going to remove 98% of all contaminates on a record. We can argue back and forth about that last 2%. Different people will have varying opinions.

It would be interesting to take one dirty record, clean one half with one machine and the other half with the other and see if you could hear any sound variation in one-second increments as the record spins.

[AnotherJohnson]

There is no doubt that the first cleaning of a record is audible most of the time.

Last night I played an odd record from Nonesuch. I can’t remember playing it before. It was Bach Trios ... but the Trio was Yo Yo Ma on cello, Chris Thile on mandolin, and Edgar Meyer on bass.

The mandolin sounded like a harpsichord. The cello soared into the range of the viola, and even the violin. The bass also covered huge ground, mimicking what might be the cello when the cello was mimicking the violin. These three guys are masters of their musical domains.

In any event, I thought I’d cleaned this record, so I just put it on the platter. I was wrong. The first two cuts on side A were filled with snaps and pops.

I got up and cleaned it. Restarted from the lead in groove. All the noise that had been audible to me was gone. That was with an HW16.5.

When I came in from that building after listening to the four sides of that album, I looked up Harry’s Corner on the VPI forum. There are threads there that are relevant to this one and I read a bit. Harry is Harry Weisfeld, founder of VPI and until recently CEO, Chief Cook, and Bottle Washer. Harry retired and now does R&D, while Mat, his son, handles the CEO type stuff.

Harry has been really interested in ultrasonic cleaners and their affect on the record. He has, like Harry Pearson had, a large collection of master tapes for comparison with viny pressings.

He is now noticing that some ultrasonic cleaning seems muddle the sparkle at the highest end of the spectrum. The dynamic transients of triangles can loose their spatial clarity, for example. I have noticed this with vacuum cleaning too, and wonder if it is related stuff that cleaning moves around in the grooves.

There used to be a thread there on home brew style ultrasonic cleaners, and it’s probably still there. The thread I looked at last night started with anecdotes about the latest work he was doing with Dave’s V-8.

In any event, I don’t have any interest in arguing, especially not over what may be 2%. RJ often says that he needs something like a 40+% improvement to make a change. I think that cleaning on an HW16.5 is a huge improvement over not cleaning. I wonder if there is another leap for ultrasonic cleaning over HW16.5. It’s hard to imagine for most records, but for truly bad ones, maybe it could happen.

Meanwhile, there is a product called the Sugar Cube, I think, that digitally removes snaps crackles and pops from the turntable’s output signal.

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day maties,

Yes, the Kirmuss gadget has made it's way down unda as well but no where near a grand. It's closer to 2 grand or over, somewhere in the region of $2700. So, it's become a controversial topic... some claiming it to be utter nonsense and others stating it's the ultimate!

One of the main importers are the same mob that offers the exhorbitant highend gear, such as Helix TT's, Wilson's, Alsyvox ribbons, Cessaro horns, and other gear priced at $1.9 million! Yes, that's right they also offer the top of the line Cessaro horns, with matching dual bass horns, depending on the finish you prefer, it's a cool 1.9mil all the way. They also included shipping, and delivery plus installation, how thoughtful! Nirvana Audio only the finest, no CJ gear maties, too low end unfortunately...

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Getting back to this K gadget, a very Wiseman once mentioned during our very brief 15min chat many years ago in a galaxy far away... that there's really no point in restoring vinyl. Once it's beyond its lustre or spec that's it! The key is to not allow it to get to that point. That is, to look after your precious vinyl, always handle carefully and replace in its sleeve immediately after use. A general wipe down with a lint free anti-static cloth is all that's really required.

Cleaning, washing and using all sorts of gizmo's can actually make the vinyl worse... not to mention some washing them with fairy liquid under the tap. Everyone has different theories and expert ideas of restoration but once it passes a point of hard usage and abuse, that's about it.

The second most important factor is keeping the stylus clean, maintaining that shiny diamond tip is the most critical factor. He recommended two cleaning gadgets that I've attched here, and they work wonders! One is the ultra-sonic cleaner by a German company and the other is a pure alcohol solution by Audio Technica, solely meant and designed for stylus cleaning.

During playback, the diamond tip will always cut into the grooves anyway, and if the record is dirty it will build up a gunk. This can be easily cleaned out by the ultrasonic gadgets. If during playback there's just a small dust build up, this can be easily cleared up with the AT solution with a gentle brush from rear to front as you would normally do...
Believe me, I've seen some doing it the other way around, oh boy.

The Kirmuss, including a few other top cleaning gadgets, also requires a lot of setup and maintenance after cleaning several LP's over a certain time. The hoses have to be drained and aired for a certain period and care and attention is required to get it right. I know one chap who bought one and used it to positive results but said it wasn't worth the 2.5grand, considering the amount of time he had to spend maintaining the unit itself. He preferred using the old standard methods of a high grade solution cleaner wipe down and done! Plonk the LP on spin and enjoy. He also claimed that the time taken to attend to all this fluffing around, he'd rather have had a couple beers or a fine wine, I whole heartedly agree on that one!

I was thinking about getting one myself, or at least visiting the chaps at NA to see what their advice was. 2.5 smackers is not cheap but as the wise man mentioned before, it's only marginal... focus more on the stylus and maintaining the diamond tip in top order.

Oh! Btw that wise man was none other than Roy Gandi himself, the founder and legend behind Rega. I guess that's why I use a Rega TT's.

Once this covid is out of the park, before dumping 2.5 grand, I'll visit NA and see what the Kirmuss can do exactly. At least I'll give it a shot for what its worth. The other piece of advice RG gave during that 15mins, was to stay clear of dirty records, just go for the good clean ones and don't buy used unless you're 100% sure of the quality. Good advice!

Cheers maties, RJ
Oops, forgot to attach the gadgets...

[AnotherJohnson]

Roy’s take on it was the same as Ivor’s. Clean the stylus with a match striking pad, and if you don’t like a review, light a match and burn it. They also both recommended to clean the record by playing it, letting the stylus scoop the detritus out of the groove.

My experience does not match theirs. I would take anything either said with a large grain of NaCl.

[admin]

In any event, I don’t have any interest in arguing, especially not over what may be 2%. RJ often says that he needs something like a 40+% improvement to make a change. I think that cleaning on an HW16.5 is a huge improvement over not cleaning. I wonder if there is another leap for ultrasonic cleaning over HW16.5. It’s hard to imagine for most records, but for truly bad ones, maybe it could happen.

100% agree. I think the argument of which one is superior is academic not very practical as a good cleaning will remove almost all the noticeable contaminates. Different approaches to the same problem, one not necessarily better than the other.

The second most important factor is keeping the stylus clean, maintaining that shiny diamond tip is the most critical factor.

A very good and often overlooked point. Before when I had a traditional turntable, I would often see some accumulation on the stylus after awhile. I tried to incorporate wiping down each record before a play with a record brush and also cleaned the stylus once after each play session.

[Bill Stevenson]

I have wondered the same thing AJ. Been using a VPI HW-17 for over 30 years and although it works quite well and is easy to use, there are records that have proven to be impossible to get completely free of the rice krispies. A recent credible white paper caught my eye here is the link:

https://thevinylpress.com/app/uploads/2 ... -05-19.pdf

There is a section suggesting the use of Tergitol in lieu of IPA, as suggested by Harry, in our vacuum cleaning machines. Since I stick with records that are new, or at least in excellent to near mint condition, the recommendations in this paper made sense to me and so I gave it a go and can verify that Tergitol definitely improved the overall effectiveness of the cleaning performance of my HW-17. I am quite pleased. I also think that if I was fiercely determined to get the last 2% of grunge, if that is the real number, out of the grooves I would follow the full procedure outlined in this paper before I would spend the money and hassle of an ultrasonic cleaner. I doubt there would be a significant difference in terms of residual foreign matter in the record grooves.

On a related matter, I own a Sugar Cube, model SC-1, and it works as advertised and removes clicks and pops with very little discernable audible side effect. It will not save a very noisy record, but for any record which has a few annoying clicks, it is close to a miracle maker. I have mine in the tape loop so it can be easily bypassed when not needed. Highly recommended.

Regards,

Bill

[AnotherJohnson]

On stylus cleaning, Peter Lederman recommends the tacky blue putty sometimes called “Blu-Stick.”

Kirmuss argues against this because of the load on the cantilever when you lift it out of the putty.

I had Peter, aka Soundsmith, do some retipping for me at one time. The two cartridges I had him rework for me both had broken cantilevers. One was a Linn Krystal which has a hollow cantilever. The other was a Grado Reference series. The Krystal, according to Linn, failed due to my use of Stylast when I first mounted the cartridge. It lasted a few months, and then the cantilevered failed in the middle of playing a side one day. Linn took no responsibility, even though they’d not warned against wet treatments at the time. Several others who were using Lyra’s SPT also had failures. No support from Linn for them either. Linn did issue an urgent bulletin to warn against wet cleaning after the fact. They recommended the Emory paper (dry) approach. This was my event that caused me to downgrade my enthusiasm for Linn as a company.

The Grado had been broken by a toddler at the previous owner’s house. He threw it in rather than dismount it when I bought an extra Ittok to put on an HW19 Mk III I was restoring. Grado sold me an original box and stylus guard for modest money.

Peter did excellent and economical repairs on both by grafting one of his cantilever + diamond assemblies to the remaining cantilever base in both cases.

I tried his Blu-Stick cleaning method for a while, but became uncomfortable with the cantilever’s reverse deflection on extraction from the putty.

I sold both cartridges with full disclosure to fellows who were on a budget and happy to have them.

I’ve stuck with Lyra since then. I clean with a stylus brush every few records, or more frequently if I notice any debris on the stylus. I have recently started using the SPT fluid that comes with the Lyra cartridges, but Lyra is very specific on how to use it, and I follow their instructions.

I have a high power, well lit, Bausch & Lomb stereo microscope that allows me to inspect diamonds, but I only use it at cartridge changes as a point of interest.

The condition of the diamond is a big factor in cartridge performance, but clean records and proper cartridge setup lead to long life in my experience.

Ivor eventually accepted the value of record cleaning, but as the story has been told to me, Roy never changed his mind, even after being presented with rationally irrefutable evidence.

In an LP12 of any flavor, I can see where the money goes. In a Rega, not so much. Since the Rega TTs are unsprung, I’d prefer a VPI if I wanted an unsprung table ... but this is just my personal preference. I do really love Harry and Mat Weisfeld’s customer care. Harry is the most accessible of all the old heads still engaged in the high end.

[AnotherJohnson]

Bill, thanks for the link. It looks very interesting and I will read it.

Also thanks for the Sugar Cube report. I may buy one to experiment with. The tape loop is a great idea.

[AnotherJohnson]

Bill provided this link.

https://thevinylpress.com/app/uploads/2 ... -05-19.pdf

I’ve printed it off for easy reading.
It is anything BUT an easy read.

I’ve gone through it and it is fascinating to have this study from a fellow whose career has been based on precision cleaning for the Navy.

One very nice feature of his approach is that he presents methodology that does not require large expenditures for equipment. It’s quite logical, well documented, and thoroughly explained.

Thanks to Bill for sharing.

[AnotherJohnson]

FWIW, I grabbed two records, both featuring Kenny Burrell, and listened to them last night.

The older one with Coleman Hawkins as the leader, was unexpectedly stunning. Quiet. Dynamic. Wonderful on every level. I will put this in my “show off the vinyl system pile.

The newer one (though still old), was also stunning ... for its general heavy noise and pop presence. I cleaned it twice. Fortunately for me, records like this are rare in my collection. This record came to me from a friend who had abandoned his vinyl quest.

After the second cleaning, as I approached the final cut, with still unacceptable noise floor, I had a locked groove. Locked grooves are rare in my experience. I’ve only had a few and they’ve always been caused by pressing defects or abuse.

On inspection this one turned out to be caused by an impact that had left a tiny divot/impression on the surface. There is no way to fix that problem by any cleaning technique.

I am generally quite pleased with my record collection ... but these sorts of issues are always a disappointment.

[Bill Stevenson]

On our first date I took my future wife, Bonnie, to Lennie's On The Turnpike in Peabody, Massachusetts to hear Jimmy Smith. For that date on guitar was Kenny Burrell, and on drums Donald Bailey. This was in early May 1968. We were married one year later. Despite the fact that Bonnie would rather listen to the Beatles, our marriage is an ongoing work in progress. I am pretty sure that my record collection includes most if not all of the Smith/Burrell collaborations. Certainly all of the Blue Notes and Verves. Jazz (and blues) is very serious business for me with an extensive collection of recordings from the 1920s to the present. I don't know very much about other forms of music.

[AnotherJohnson]

I don’t go back to the ‘20s, but I do have an extensive collection of Kenny as both leader and sideman.

I really like both his sound and his style. He’s a real sleeper. I like Wes, but Kenny is special.

I grew up in MA. We have a lot of common threads.

[Big Dog RJ]

Huh, Locked groove... that's something new. Have never heard of this phenomenon before and makes perfect sense though. How often would you come across a locked groove, plus that would certainly be very hard to rectify. I guess there's no way.

Thanks for your update AJ and thanks to Bill S for the link write up. That is some in-depth information, great stuff.

I've found that little ultra-sonic stylus cleaner gizmo from Germany works really well. The only thing is it suits arms that are slightly raised, all you need to do is drop the stylus on the recommended pad after a droplet of cleaning fluid. It's basically the same fluid in that little Audio Technica bottle. Switch on and the US- cleaner buzzes into action. After approx 10-15 secs the stylus is nice and shiny. For heavy gunk, one or two more drops is required but in most cases just one drop is adequate.

The place where I bought the Rega from used this very same device as their personal cleaning gadget. They weren't selling the last one they had but I was lucky enough to be presented with the very last one in stock. Now they use a wand type of a gadget, looks like a light pen and is US but takes a bit longer than the other gadget.

So what's the verdict here, should I venture towards a Kirmuss and do you think it's worth it?
Or should I just stick to buying top quality LP's, and pass on the older ones that are not so great?

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

If you do not have an RCM and are committed to vinyl, it’s a good investment to buy one.

TAS just arrived, and they gave an award to the $800 HW16.5. I have owned the HW17, HW16, and HW16.5, as well as the Nitty Gritty 2.5Fi.

They all do make a noticeable improvement in most records, and they do it quickly.

If I Spring for a UCM, like a Kirmuss, I see it as potentially supplementary rather than substitutive.

From the article that Bill shared, it would appear that you do not need either RCM or UCM. His methods are based on fluids, cloths, sinks, and racks.

I do think that many, if not most, records benefit from cleaning at least once.

I also think that the HW16.5 is a great value and proven long term performer.

More than that seems to be personal preference.

[AnotherJohnson]

Regarding the locked groove phenomenon, if you have decent properly set up gear, it is quite rare. I would say that I can recall 4 or 5 in literally thousands of records over the last 40 years of owning serious gear. In my current set up, locked grooves are extremely rare, but always showstoppers. A locked groove is defect, not just dirt.

When I was very young playing on a suitcase player with steel stylus, locked grooves were far more common, and often self inflicted by needle drops.

[AnotherJohnson]

Possibly last thought on this.

Cavitation is serious force on the vinyl.

It is like micro pressure washing.

The idea that it is harmless to the vinyl strikes me as folly.

Anyone who has ever pressure washed wood or concrete, or has watched waves or streams rearrange terrain, knows the erosive power of directed water.

This is why I would only use a UCM in worst cases.

First do no harm.

[admin]

I personnaly never thought of ultrasonic cleaning as being detrimental to plastics? As long as the vinyl is not being deformed I don't see why it would be a problem? One could argue that the abrasivness of a brush/cleaning powder may be more harmful. It would be really interesting to test this theory and compare under an electron microscope of high magnification microscope.