PCC88s vs 6922s

[roberto]

usually our climate has 80 to 90% of humidity. The gold pins helps to stay free of corrosion. The gold pins are always neat. The sonic difference? I don't find any. Same as non gold pins.

[AnotherJohnson]

Once in the socket, it’s a nonissue.
If regular pins are compromised, the advice from most, including CJ, would be to seat the tube twice, using the socket as a pin cleaner.

But it is not a big deal. I used gold pins if that’s what I’ve got on hand. The rumer mill prefers them. Like RJ, I’m not sold on them. Certainly the cost differential is very small.

[AnotherJohnson]

On the bright side, at 80+% RH, you’re not going to be plagued by static electricity issues.

[roberto]

Yes, a positive view. Right now i'm using the Genlalex Gold Lion gold pins 6922. NO issues so far. Sound quality? Good enough to be happy with the results. I do know that out there are much better sounding tubes...but being so dramatic temperamental, and you don't get any clue when they are going to fail. Jeff sent to me this one and said: Roberto, these Genalex are good tubes...try them, you might like them as I do.

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes, a positive view. Right now i'm using the Genlalex Gold Lion gold pins 6922. NO issues so far. Sound quality? Good enough to be happy with the results. I do know that out there are much better sounding tubes...but being so dramatic temperamental, and you don't get any clue when they are going to fail. Jeff sent to me this one and said: Roberto, these Genalex are good tubes...try them, you might like them as I do.

He’s right.

I don’t believe there are “much better sounding” tubes. There is a range, even within the 6922 production.

They’re cheap enough to buy a dozen and roll away. Or better still, recognize that it’s about the music not the tubes.

Of course I know that you know this. Happy Saturday!

[roberto]

Right on AJ,
Tube rolling is somewhat and sometimes very subjective...the objective is to have it with a great floor noise, good harmonic detail and the wonderful warmth of the tube. The presence of the main instrument to voices is another thing.

Because of my new DAC, the presence of the instruments is quite different. All have presence, it is very difficult to put this on my words...my brain understand it, but say it is difficult. The air between every instrument is granted, on symphonic or small camera orchestra. You can focus easily on the instrument but the remain are really there...not as put them into a bag and shake it...it is precision and each with many details that were not before,
I have a SS preamp and the sound is ok, but when I go back to my ET-7 is a WOW with goosebumps.

Happy listening!

[Big Dog RJ]

Ok maties, the verdict is in:

Not sure what's going on with the GGL's but seems like that last batch of 6 purchased about a year ago, 4 have all packed up about the same time. Again just tonight, as I was powering up the monoblocks, the right channel had a distinctive raspy / fluttering noise coming through the right CLX.

This time on the right channel, even though the preamp was in mute, the power amp sent off a signal to the right CLX, causing it to light up. I knew straight away that this is unusual behaviour and something has triggered off the CLX, and I noted two things:
1. Could be either the driver tube (GGL) or 2. The input tube (M8080).
The thing is I just changed the GGL's and these were the very last pair! Whereas that little M8080 was also recently changed. However, I remembered only one M8080 was changed on the left amp not the right...
So, I changed the M8080, thus was the last Mullard in my spare stock. (New ones have been ordered via CJ, arriving on sail boat... probably rowing ...) been well over 4 months.

Anyway, rather than fiddling around with input vs driver tubes, I just changed both types on both monoblocks. So now, both amplifiers have the EH6922's and M8080 Mullards in them, and it sounds marvellous!

These are the original tubes meant for these particular monoblocks, and they were the ones recommended by LJ and Ed. After about 5yrs on, when I did the SE upgrades, JF recommended the GGL's and so I tried them, and they were great! Then after another 2yrs, when the full SE upgrade was done, which included Vishay resistors and a full layout of Teflons plus the mods & tweaks, the recommended driver tubes were the GGL's. Considered to be somewhat superior and a sort of upgrade... however I don't think so with these particular monoblocks. Perhaps the newer Classic series amps and higher powered LP series amps, where the 6922's are widely used but I'm not sure. I guess sticking with the original tube type is the best.

Sound wise, now I could easily confirm that the GGL's are not superior in any way. Perhaps a slightly more solid thump to the bass or LF the most. Whereas, the EH tubes have a marvellous midrange to it. They're more open, crystal clear and have a well balanced LF detail to it where it blends with the rest of the LF lines very smoothly. I would say, a sort of easy flow from top to bottom, with a pristine finesse in the midband, it's just marvellous! I'm really enjoying this combination and I will plan to stick with these tubes. Afterall, LJ and Ed weren't going to recommend something unless they were 110% sure of it, and in this case they are!

Cheers, and do enjoy those fine tunes!
Woofty woof'n! RJ

Here they are, all pretty maids in a row...

[AnotherJohnson]

I love a happy ending

[Joe Appierto]

Glad to hear this issue has been solved.

It's been 4 months and counting since you ordered the Mullard 8080 and they still haven't arrived? If you don't mind my asking was there a reason you didn't order them from The Tube Store? I believe you did in the past. Did it also take a really long time from them?

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day JoeApp,

No, in fact when ordering last time from Tube Store, they arrived within 4 days! That was awhile ago, and before this covid madness crippled Aus, and the world in general...

Due to our longest lockdown, btw we're still in lockdown- things have really slowed down. Forget about Int'l shipping, just local freight across states takes awfully longer than usual. So what I did back then was I placed several orders / pairs from other suppliers, not just one. Tube Store, Tube Depot, CJ and one other local supplier. These were small orders, a pair each of 6922's GGL's, a pair of EH6922 and a pair of Mullards M8080 tubes. The last pair of Mullards I've ordered from CJ through our Aus importer are the ones coming on row ... gently down the stream, oh! What a dream...

My current local supplier also has all the required tooobs in stock that I need for the amplifiers but I'm just double checking if and how he would conduct the test, match and burn-in process that is recommended for optimal performance. Once this lockdown is lifted, I'll probably visit the chap and see what he's got in stock so that I could pick and choose, and then allow him to do the needful.

So, by then that row boat would have finally anchored! By then I'll have a few spares on hand. With regards to output tubes, I think he's good to go because they're top notch quality. Again, just need to make sure about his test & match process...

At this stage, for us folks down unda, ordering from CJ is really not viable, simply due to the mighty delays.
Around 2010, just for peace of mind, i used to place an order with CJ at least once a year, and the tubes would arrive quite late then as well but now it's just ridiculous.
No point spending over $600 just for a set of eight KT120's and having to wait not even knowing who's rowing the boat or riding the horse... forget it!

Cheers Joe, have a good one mate
RJ

[Joe Appierto]

Thanks, RJ -- you too. I hope the tubes from CJ get there sooner rather than later just for the peace of mind of having some spares, as you say.

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,
Can someone of can explain to me what's the difference of Genalex 6922 made in Russia, bought it at the tube store and from tube depot? Are they different?

i really appreciate very much your response!...

RJ, I am with Joe, the tubes will be in your hands and ears very soon. Yes, everything is being very slow...and it is getting worse again...sorry with the bad news.

Happy listening!

[Big Dog RJ]

Robbo mate,

Not quite sure about your exact question regarding Genalex... are you wondering where they are made in?

Anyway, the 6922 also known as the E88CC, which also has other variants 6DJ8, Phillips, Siemens, Sovtek, EH and so on... these are all 6922's.

The Genalex Gold Lions (GGL's ) are made at the same exact factory in Saratov Russia as the Electro Harmonix tubes. The EH6922 and GGL's are identical tubes, no differences in construction whatsoever!

Only subtle changes such as gold pins in the GGL's and EH tubes also offer this same gold pin finish, if the user chooses. However, I've tried them all, standard pins, gold pins, EH, GGL's, honestly speaking they're all the same mate.

However, there are very subtle differences between the two (EH6922 and GGL 6922's), especially in the midrange on the EH and LF in the GGL's but this can be very frustrating and difficult to identify. I rather just replace the tubes required with the original spec, power up and enjoy the fine tunes!

This tube rolling and mucking around has made me lose the plot! Hence, I'm just sticking to the originals now. I don't see the point in trying out all the variants, especially when CJ clearly states that the tubes they've chosen are pretty much top notch. So it can't get any better than that!

So yes, Genalex made in Russia, EH made in Russia, and from the same factory, same process. Hope that helps...
Cheers mate,
RJ

[roberto]

Perhaps I read wrong or understood wrong. So, a KT-120 made by Tung-Sol is the same tube. It does not matters from where I buy it, right?

Thanks RJ. It is just a bug inside me!

A big hug from Denver, Colorado. Returning to CR today.

Happy listening!
Woof, woof, and waving my tale!

[AnotherJohnson]

Yes, it will still be a Tungsol. It will fall somewhere in the range of their production.

If you buy it from CJ or other vendors who run in, sort, listen, and grade, and if you pay them for a higher grade, you are more likely to have the better end of the range of production. Though it is not guaranteed. A randomly selected tube from anyone’s inventory could be anything in the range … from best to worse.

I think the problem here is the education system which does not prepare people to understand statistics and production.

[Big Dog RJ]

Greetings from down unda!
Things slowly opening up in Melb... so they say once we've reached our 70% of double jabs.

Getting back to the original post by AJ, Pcc88s vs 6922s, seems like another chap here has gone full circle. So this time round its the GATS2 not the series 1. According to the current owner, the preamp came fitted with the Phillips pcc88 tubes. It was certainly all well and good until a few failures happened, sort of one after the other. Very similar to what I experienced, most probably a batch of them, can't be bothered.

The question both of us had, was why this particular tube and the Phillips 7DJ8 was also used prior to these ones. Both have a slightly higher plate voltage around 7V I think. Whereas the original Genalex 6922's were around 6V. Whether this higher voltage was a good thing or bad thing we don't know. Does it make the GAT sound any better, I couldn't really tell but one thing for sure is that now going full circle, we're back to the EH6922's! The EH6922s also hover around that 6V mark, so maybe it's a better fit.

After fairly extensive listening, I was very comfy with the EH sound. It had the usual open midrange, smooth silky top end and very good LF detail. Overall, a well balanced tube. So I've been thinking, perhaps in that particular setup, the EH works well and in other installations maybe the Phillips works better. Most probably these are system dependent but that 1V variance is what makes the difference. Then in which case it looks like these tubes are pushed harder, hence the failures...

Anyone else had similar experience on their GATs? Or any similar variances with these pcc88s? Please do let us know. Would be very interesting to learn which brand/ type of tubes you're using, and why you prefer those in your preamps. Maybe the current GAT/ S2 owners here can relate better.

Cheers, RJ

[Joe Appierto]

I think the 7DJ8/PCC88 was used for two reasons in the later model CJ preamps. For a period of time they were substantially less expensive than the 6DJ8 family (6DJ8/6922/7308) equivalents. As they've grown in popularity this cost/price gap has narrowed somewhat. The 2nd reason was more of a surmise than anything CJ ever came out and flatly said -- although they may have and I just don't know. Some of the newer generation CJ preamps ran their tubes closer to the operating limits of the tubes used than the older preamps such as the 16LS and 17LS series. As a result the 7DJ8 came into vogue because they were able to run at higher heater voltages.

I used 6DJ8 family tubes and same brand 7DJ8 (such as Telefunken) in my 16LS2, 17LS and as the input tube on the Pr. 140 and I could never tell the difference sound-wise between the equivalent 6DJ8 and 7DJ8.

Here's a recap of some of their nominal operating parameters:

Type Heater Voltage Heater Current
6DJ8 6.3 V 365 mA
6922 6.3 V 300 mA
7308 6.3 V 335 mA

7DJ8 7.6 V 300 mA

[AnotherJohnson]

6.3V across the heater is a power supply standard for tubes. Whatever voltage the heater sees, the impedance of the tube, and that voltage, will establish the current flow.

There used to be a guy on one of the vinyl - turntable forums who regularly denigrated modern gear, and sometimes specifically CJ, because he thought the circuit designs seriously stressed the tubes. From his set up, my impression was that he was a cheapskate with a tin ear.

To my ears, modern gear, especially CJ, sounds good. To my pocket book, I don’t want to be changing tubes every 12 months … but I don’t mind every two years at all.

[Joe Appierto]

To my ears, modern gear, especially CJ, sounds good.

No argument from me on that point. I'm just a fan standing in the cheap seats with 20 year old gear. However, having been around the block a few times and my ears not made out of tin I'm not sure what your point may be.

[AnotherJohnson]

It was not directed at you. I was reminiscing about a curmudgeon on one of the vinyl boards who used to denigrate anything more recent that original McIntosh, Marantz, Fischer, and Scott.

I don’t think it was you .