Building a System - Pour on the advice.

[Jordanmj]

Greetings all,

I was a CJ owner many years ago and now after 10 years without a system or a room I have decided to build/design a room with a new system. I know this group is extremely knowledgeable in audio and CJ equipment and was hoping for your thoughts and guidance.

I just secured a ACT2 S2, the first piece. I am so excited as this is my dream preamp. However, I need everything else.

My plan is to get: a pair of Maggie 1.7i, buy Mye stands.
I need an amp. Ideally I would like to buy used and get a pair LM140M or I guess I a Premier 140. Amp is where my knowledge is weakest.

Run Nordost (blue Heaven or above) for cables.

Initially I would need a Streamer and server as my main source.I own no CDs and don't plan too. I would like to eventually get into Viynl. So I am open to a DAC and transport or a single unit.

I would love direction on amps, a dac and streamer server. I welcome any comments and advice. The more I can learn the better.

TYIA

[admin]

First, congrats on ACT2 S2. Very nice. I think you are going to be very happy.

Also, I am a huge Magnepan fan (and owner of the 20.1's). They are very reveling and really offer some amazing bang for your buck. And CJ gear goes so well with planar speakers. The LP140M (i think you just miss wrote LM140M) or Premier 140 would be a great choice for the maggies and the speakers do need a good high quality power to sound their best.

As for sources,.. I think digital streaming offers you an instant library that is hard to match. Our vinyl folks will tell you that there is something special about vinyl,... and I think they are right. But starting with a good streaming setup will give you time to acquire vinyl and work on that side of the setup. I enjoy both. If cost is an issue, you can always put funds into a good DAC that can be connected to any computer.

Let us know what you decide.

[AnotherJohnson]

Sounds like you’re in for some fun! I’ve enjoyed vintage CJ products for many years. Either of the amps you suggest will delight you. I can’t comment on streamers ... never touch the stuff .

I do like vinyl. I can vouch for the TEA2MAX and TEA1 as great phono preamps. I was talking to CJ on the phone this morning, and a convincing case was made for the TEA1S3 as even better still.

Welcome to the CJ Owner’s Forum!

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Jordan,

Welcome aboard the wonderful world of CJ! Where the quality of music is at its highest level, afterall "it just sounds right."

What an outstanding start for a preamp, ACT2 series 2! Infact I owned this preamp before and the series 1 as well, which was later upgraded towards the series 2. It's a superb preamp, and fitted with the Sovtek 6H30Pi tubes, it's a marvellous sound!

Agree on your selection of power amplifiers, either the big monoblocks or the premier 140 would be a superb match with maggies. Speaking of maggies, since you already own one of CJ's SOTA pre-amplifiers, and hope to match it with an equally top performer in terms of monoblocks or stereo tube amplifiers, I would highly recommend the MG3.7i.

The MG3.7i is maggies best overall ribbon transducer ever made to date. It can very easily perform in the high end of standards and the vfm is untouchable! Of course if you want to take things further, there's the MG20.7 series and the mighty 30.7's, which I've heard and have extensive experience with. Infact, I helped a chap here in Melbourne to setup his 30.7's when he ordered the first and only pair to ever arrive in Aus. These much larger maggies require a very large room, so if you don't have that sort of added space, then forget it. Same goes with ML CLX's.

A few other options on the power amplifier, would be the LP125M, LP260M, LP275M's or any of the previous stereo versions, such as the LP125sa or even the ARTsa. Any of these are top tier stuff, and have an extraordinary way of "griping" panel type speakers in order to control and drive them to their full potential. Providing ample amounts of high current and power, these amplifiers won't flinch driving difficult loads, such as ribbon panels or full range stats.

The MG1.7i is a great ribbon panel no doubt but the true ribbon tweeter that is used starting in the MG3 series, simply operates on a different level. In the past Magnepan always had issues trying their best to merge the ribbon tweeter to the rest of their panel, on the midrange and bass. Previous designs were hard pressed to keep up with the speed and agility of the ribbon tweeter, such that the tweeter would perform at such a high level of fine resolution, it tends to wander off in its own world, leaving a fairly noticeable gap between the mids & bass panels.

Now, with the cleaver design of the MG3.7i series, this gap has been addressed, also with the 20.7 series, and it's a much better design. If you can wait a bit longer and look out for a MG3.7i, that would be my highest recommendation.

With the ACT2 series 2 and a fine pair of monoblocks or top level CJ stereo amplifier, partnered with the MG3.7i, that's basically SOTA, nothing more really required.

BTW, what are your room dimensions? And where do you plan on establishing your listening position? Don't forget the added bit of space behind your listening position in order to filter out unwanted frequency as to not overload the room. The room is just as critical as every component in the rest of your gear. In fact I would emphasise the importance of the room first, then followed by the rest of the gear, not the other way round, which most tend to fall into ...

Hope all goes well, and do let us know if you come across something great.
Cheers, RJ

[Jordanmj]

Thank you everyone for the comments. So my system has developed a bit better than I hoped. Surprisingly the wife has been more supportive than I ever imagined. I bought the Magnepan 3.7i speakers and I just bought the CJ Art Mono blocks. I am still thinking Nordost for cables but I still need a dac/server/streamer and now leaning toward an SACD transport. I was originally thinking along the lines of the PS Audio Directstream and Directstream DMP SACD player but a local retailer is leading me towards an Esoteric player/dac and a Aurender streamer. I have no idea where to begin.

Big Dog, thank you for bringing up room size. So my home is currently under a large remodel. We are remodeling the entire basement. I can use the large main room which might be too big or they can frame me a room of any size. I can choose the insulation (rockwool?) I can choose flooring and walls. So any advice is most welcome. Can I get enough guidance here or online or should I hire a consultant? This system is costing me way more than I planned but now that I have invested so much I want to get it right. I also have been buying second hand (except for the Maggies) so I do have a relationship with a local dealer that would be willing, I don't think, to assist in room design or set-up.

As I said, I am a sponge right now so throw it on.

Thanks
J

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Jordan,

That's fantastic news, well done on the ART monoblocks! Superb stuff indeed! Especially with the ACT2 series 2, that's about as good as it's ever going to get mate!

Now all you require is an awe-inspiring pair of ML CLX's, ha!

The MG3.7I will match very nicely, you'll be surprised at the level of resolution and fine inner detail. The ART amplifiers will be cruising along... very fine level of control and grip on those ribbon panels, it will reproduce whip-lash bass!
Of course along with an extended high frequency extension and wonderful midrange, with great depth and warmth, just like an exceptional ribbon transducer ought to be.

With regards to the digital playback systems, obviously your local dealer is promoting the gear that he feels would be more suited towards your system, now that he knows what you have...
You must remember one simple thing, whether it be Esoteric, Aurender, PS Audio etc., all of which are top tier brands... the best gear to decide on when auditioning is the source gear that provides the least amount of colour and allows more of the music to flow. That is, it must capture every detail as close to the original recording and transfer that information directly onto your amplifiers. Then CJ amplifiers will take care of the rest along with the Maggies.

Remember you've got SOTA pre-amplifiers and power amplifiers here, so you don't want to compromise on anything less... the source gear doesn't necessarily have to be very expensive but well designed and executed with top quality parts, simple circuits and shortest signal paths, will yield a far greater level of uncoloured sound, allowing you to enjoy more of the music.

In terms of your room and flooring, everyone's room, type and materials are completely different. The idea is to have a large enough room to allow standing waves to filter off or get diffused somewhere... not get trapped by 4 enclosures.
Wall to wall carpeting can ruin the natural overtones of transients as well as muffle bass lines, so moderation is the key. I would use solid floor tiles or timber flooring, carpeting under the system gear, and for each speaker. Then a gap of solid flooring again up till the listening area, seating can be placed with carpets again, some light furnishings along with rear and far back wall past your listening position, just to either diffuse or absorb unwanted frequency. You don't want to over-dampen the room, as it will be lifeless and dead, resulting in a dead dull sound, no matter how loud you turn it up...

You want a room that allows you to relax and enjoy your favourite recordings, a room that allows you to fully engage with the music and be fully immersed in the listening experience, not just a demo sort of event.
Once set up right, the system should allow you to spend endless hours listening, rather than a quick blast and rushing off to shut down the system and attend to something else...

In terms of best materials to use and appropriate structure, I would engage with a consultant. However, remember that you are the primary listener (and your Mrs of course!) So the both of you should know the system well more than this consultant would ever know. Therefore, your ears are the ultimate judge not the consultants!

Also, very important/ critical factor, don't forget to install a dedicated AC mains line solely for the audio system, directly to the AC mains board on a separate CB switch. This line shouldn't be sharing any other thing. Once you've done this, you can get the Nordost Qbase8 power board, along with the Nordost QX4 magnetic field stabiliser unit. I'm using exactly these two items in conjunction and overall it's super quiet!

However, you don't have to do this, any top quality power board, power cords, and cables will work fine, just try to keep the items on par rather than mix and match...
When it comes to speaker cables, get the best you can afford because this is where the system chain ends, therefore your speakers will benefit the most from the highest quality level of cables used.

And yes! Fully agree on Nordost! I'm using a full Nordost power loom- power boards, QRT unit, power cords, interconnects and speaker cables are all Nordost. With Nordost, sky's the limit! There are good ones which are affordable and then there are really crazy good ones that reach serious levels of fine resolution and detail, they are crazy priced but that's what Nordost charges and believes in. So if you can afford it, go for the best you can possibly afford.

Also one more point, you simply cannot justify all the spend and commitment on money... it's impossible to just fork out over 100grand and think you're going to buy a great system.
It doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

Putting a great system together takes years, and developing and putting together a fabulous system together is an "Art form," which can take even a decade or more... So don't be in any hurry to be surprised or disappointed along the way... it's all a learning curve. Don't get caught up in the reviews or dealers promotions, just trust your ears first. Only you will know what sort of sound suits your tastes and listening habits. It is a very personal preference and a lot of personal attention, therefore putting together an outstanding system, will take an awful lot of time and effort. You simply cannot get it all right in the first go.

Hope that helps, and do let us know how your journey unfolds, we're always happy to help in any way possible.

Cheers, all the best
Big woof! RJ

[admin]

I'm not going repeat the things that RJ just wrote but I agree with what he says.

Congrats on the Maggies and Art's. That is going to be one great combination that you will most definitely be very happy with for the long run.

Some of the biggest things that people don't address in their setup is the acoustic properties of the room and the power supply. I have a lot of voltage variation where I live so that is an issue I have addressed. If you have the funds, PS Audio makes some really great power equipment that will literally rebuild the power sine wave.

If you are building in the basement, you want to make sure that you don't set this up on concreate. You can put carpet down or you can put hardwood flooring down and use throw carpets if that is your preference. Some things are very hard to plan before the build as you don't really know the full acoustic properties of the room until you are actually in there with your furniture, walls, decorations, and flooring. If the budget is s a concern, I would recommend you look at The Foam Factory https://www.thefoamfactory.com/acoustic ... cfoam.html. You can buy in bulk and it's inexpensive. You may also want to invest in a calibration mic and software and you can build up the acoustic treatments as needed. I have used this and it's well worth it in my opinion: https://www.amazon.com/miniDSP-UMIK-1-M ... B00N4Q25R8

As RJ has mentioned, if you don't want to do the leg work yourself, a knowledgable consultant can help you make decisions on these things.

[Q3Di]

Jordanmj,

Congrats on the great combo! I have similar configuration with Maggies and CJ. I have used MG3.7's with ET5/ET250S and McCormack CJ edition universal player. I also had the McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe monoblocks.

Currently, I am enjoying the TEA2SE/Classic2SE/MF2550 and the legendary Premier 8A. I have tried several SS and tube amps with Maggies. But the 8A's are what I like best.

For digital, I am using the CJ HD3 DAC with a Linux computer music server.

For cables, I am using Cardas Golden Ref IC, Clear Reflection SC, and Golden Ref & Clear power cords.

[AnotherJohnson]

I would recommend you look at The Foam Factory https://www.thefoamfactory.com/acoustic ... cfoam.html

You may also want to invest in a calibration mic and software and you can build up the acoustic treatments as needed. I have used this and it's well worth it in my opinion:
https://www.amazon.com/miniDSP-UMIK-1-M ... B00N4Q25R8

These are great links! Thanks for sharing them.

[Jordanmj]

Admin and Big Dog et al...
Thank you so much for the comments and direction. What a great resource you folks are.


I learned from my contractor yesterday that the Max height I can achieve is 7 foot 4 inches from floor to ceiling. I learned this after I purchased the 6 foot tall 3.7i speakers. One person I spoke with said that was a significant problem. I spoke with Magnepan and they said it will be perfectly fine.
I would like to hire a consultant. I am struggling with room dimensions at this point and then will still have no knowledge of room treatments. Can anyone recommend someone?
Thanks
Jordan

[roberto]

Hola Jordan,

Don't you worry about the room. Install the system first, with all the furniture. Rugs are escenciall at the floor. The Maggies 3.7 are a magnificent speakers and one of the best sounding loudspeaker available on these days, to my liking. I am another planar speaker's guy. Fill the room with all your sofa's and easychair. Then have a listen. Little by little, you will treat the surface behind the speakers and corners. We all have to deal with room boundaries. These standing waves are part of the room, and once you have set all what goes into the room, the positioning of the speakers and the system. If you use a TT, it is good idea to have it away from the speakers.

Your room seems to be fine with the height. There are room treatment devices for the bass. The corners of the room are the ones that you must treat. There are Bass Traps, Acoustic Panels and Diffusers. Actually, you do not see this things. You can see all different type and shape of these room treatments. Do not panic with your first listening!. Your ears must get accustomed to your new room. We will help you little by little.

Is this a dedicated room for your system? Can you provide some pics of your new room? This will help us to give to you the most convenient advice.

Happy listening!

[admin]

I agree with Roberto. I don't think there is any way to know exactly what kind of treatments you will need until the speakers are all set up and the room is furnished.

Get it all set up. If you want an objective interpretation of the sound, that is where a calibration mic like I referenced above comes in handy. If you do want to hire a consultant, I would recommend asking your local audiophile shop as this will be restricted by geography and they will have more experience on who is reputable in your area. Some shops actually perform these kinds of services themselves.

Often times just moving the listening position a little forward or back can make a difference. You really won't know until you power up the system and start spinning records/CD's. Speaker positioning also plays a huge role. Again, set everything up. Optimize positioning. Take measurements if needed, but at the end of the day listen to your ears. After all those are done and you've done everything you can do with positioning and environment control, you can then look at acoustic treatments.

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Jordan,

You're most welcome and we're always happy to help, especially on this forum, CJO, the place to be, afterall "it just sounds right!" I wonder where I've heard that before...

Thanks to our good mate, Admin (Mr. G) we're always learning new things and sharing some serious levels of experience. We absolutely can't no it all, no matter how senior we are... and I'm still coming across new things, improving my system each year, just learning from these guys. I guess we're like the last of the Mohican's, simply because my daughter thinks I'm batty... the good wife doesn't mind, I guess she sees the therapy involved... it keeps me sane.

Now, with reference to your Maggies, I don't think that ceiling height should be a problem. At least you still have a fair amount of space in height for the Maggies to setup. Maggies being panels are dipoles, so the critical setup element is to have ample amount of space for them to breathe. They are "box-less" design, hence the room is the box! It's as if the drivers are freely suspended in mid air... it's a marvellous thing!
Maggies are a "line-source" type of sound wave pattern. Very little side wall interaction, not much on floor or ceiling issues either but front and back are very critical, hence dipole in nature. The same amount of energy is reproduced exactly in the front and directly behind the panels. Therefore, if you absorb too much of the back-wave, it won't reproduce that snap and flare, along with the speed panels are known for. Dampen the back wall in moderation to recreate the perfect balance. Then again if your room has ample space, dampening the backwall is not required. You will be able to determine this only when the system is fully setup.

As our good mates Admin and Robbo have clearly stated, at this stage the room interaction is the unknown. Once you're in it and all setup, you will learn its attributes straight away, not to worry. Then and only then will you be able to begin with proper setup. You have to get a benchmark point, where you've heard the same maggies sound outstanding! That can be your reference and once you begin to create that space, eventually your system will match it and on certain occasions will surpass it, that's the goal.

However, like I said putting all this together is an art form. No easy way towards it and no rush. Just take your time.
Cheers mate, RJ

[Jordanmj]

Update:
So I have secured my source (Antipodes Cx-ex solution with the P1/P2) going into a lampizator Atlantic TRP.

I have shared all your ideas on AC with the electrician so that shall be taken care of.
I was told by someone “consulting” to go 16x20 in room size. I like the bigger room (was 13.7x17.7) but am concerned by the 7’4 ceilings. He was not.
Purple drywall
Still need to determine flooring.

Financially. I am tapped. Completely. And I still do not have any cables, a rack, or power treatment. Lol. I went too big on the other items. Anyone collect wine? Lol.

[Big Dog RJ]

Here's one fantastic drop I've been trying lately, great stuff!

Speaking of "fantastic" the Lampi is an outstanding device. Partnered with CJ gear it will provide a fine presentation, you'll be extremely impressed. Good choice!

Cheers to a fine red!
Best, RJ

[admin]

Update:
So I have secured my source (Antipodes Cx-ex solution with the P1/P2) going into a lampizator Atlantic TRP.

I have shared all your ideas on AC with the electrician so that shall be taken care of.
I was told by someone “consulting” to go 16x20 in room size. I like the bigger room (was 13.7x17.7) but am concerned by the 7’4 ceilings. He was not.
Purple drywall
Still need to determine flooring.

Financially. I am tapped. Completely. And I still do not have any cables, a rack, or power treatment. Lol. I went too big on the other items. Anyone collect wine? Lol.

If the funds are tight, I would try to build the room as best you can (ie the largest you can). Equipment you can easily upgrade in the future, it's very expensive and difficult to upgrade the size of the room. For the electrical side of things, you can try to design it so that you can upgrade that area later. Cables, racks, etc... are easy upgrades that you can do later as funds permit.

BTW- I strongly agree with going with a bigger room. Yes, you can get great sound with any speaker in a small room, but it is a lot easier to get great sound in a larger room. I've never heard any audiophile say, "I wish my listening room was smaller."

[AnotherJohnson]

BTW- I strongly agree with going with a bigger room. Yes, you can get great sound with any speaker in a small room, but it is a lot easier to get great sound in a larger room. I've never heard any audiophile say, "I wish my listening room was smaller."

Great advice ... but whatever you end up with, I’m sure you’ll make the most of it. It sounds like a great project! Don’t get obsessed over perfection to the point of disappointment. The two regrets I have in the building of my main room are that I wish I’d put duplex outlets every 4’ instead of every 6’, and I wish I’d made it even wider. Both are hard to change after the fact.

FWIW, I don’t really regret these two things because, in the case of the outlets, it is easy with the very long cords CJ provides, and in the case of the width, it is about 16’ wide, and so it’s not cramped. I’d just like another two feet. If I had it, I’d probably like two more.

[Big Dog RJ]

Very good point there Admin, the room!

No doubt this is an entire component itself, that many audiophiles and experts tend to miss out on, rather too focused on gear, the more expensive the gear the better... I don't think so.
When that critical element of the room is not fully addressed, sadly no matter how expensive the gear, the overall sound/ performance is only half way there.

The room is basically something that has to gel really well with the system over a period of time, in my opinion.
I've noticed it's difficult to get it right all at once on the first go. Only after initial setup, and a few weeks into listening, the room will let you know what are the strengths and weaknesses and where's the potential. You will slowly begin to understand it quite well, and learn to experience the system's natural overtones and transients. Controlling these parameters is the key, you don't want to over-energise the room to such an affect that it will give you a headache within the first few minutes. Believe me I've experienced this many times in private demos where those expert people thought they had designed the so called best rooms but the excess energy created by these systems was just unbearable to listen to. This is not music, rather just noise!
Most of these speakers were either stacked horns or huge dynamic driver types. Great systems and very good sized rooms but very poorly laid out and badly designed. Now it's too late for them to modify their rooms unless they entirely demolished it!

So, again very good advice from Admin, get those room parameters and design principles attended to first thing, worry about the setup later. Hope it's going well.

Cheers mate, RJ

[Jordanmj]

All great advice. So here is an update.

The amps, speakers and pre-amp have all arrived. They are sitting in boxes and making me giddy with anticipation. The Dac and streamer/server are their way.

Construction has yet to begin as the contractors are slow moving on finishing the upstairs (which according to everyone else but me, is a higher priority).

I believe I can go 16x20. Im thinking I splurge for treatments for the front corners (perhaps front middle wall) and the side at each wall placed via the mirror test.

My dilemma was I was going to only place the amps by the speakers and run longer interconnects to the pre-amp, I was quoted 7K for nordost tyr 2 7m cables. Nope. I suppose I could go 5m but it Will be unlikely I can find a 5 m cable used in one level up or down from the tyr 2. I thought about splurging for a new cable for just this one and Frankenstein The rest of the system with used cables. But even at $5000 just for the one interconnect, I just don’t see that happening now.

Therefore, I think I am now resolved to putting the rack in between the speakers although set back a couple of feet. This way I can secure the cables used via normal lengths and view the idea of placing the rack down the long wall as just one of the future upgrades down the road. I am sure I can obtain all the cables I need for less or equal to the cost of that one cable.

I’m not sure if I mentioned this but all of my listening was going to be sourced from either flac via the server or hi-res steaming. I am under the mindset that a well created flac file will sound better than the same version streamed, especially played on my Antipodes set. With that in mind I have been buying CDs for the purpose of ripping via the P1 which is supposed to be better than exact audio copy (which I am sure is what most of my conversions used. With all these do on hand, I then questioned the idea of getting a CD or SACD transport. When speaking with knowledgeable retailers they have postulated that I would need to spend north of 15 to 20,000 on a transport to equal what I can achieve from my server.

Again, most grateful for thoughts?
Best,
Jordan
I still need a rack.

[AnotherJohnson]

Generally, it is better to run the amps closer to the speakers since speaker impedance is low, and the wire can impact the load. But you can run some pretty good lengths of gauge 10 or 12 without worries.

I am NOT going to spend more than $150/meter for interconnects myself. Auditions don’t warrant spending more in my systems. I try to keep the gear close enough together to minimize the interconnect lengths.

I really like the AudioQuest MacKenzies and they have a really really big margin, so you can often get them for fair prices.

Why not start out with a sane interconnect budget and then dive off the deep end as curiosity dictates later.

Others will no doubt share different views. I do agree that interconnects matter. If they didn’t, I would be spending $5/meter instead $150.

AudioQuests bottom level stuff genuinely stinks. Their high level stuff is absurdly priced.

The MacKenzies are the sweet spot for my systems.

Gauge 12 OFC speaker wire is hard to beat too. I terminate with Nakamichi banana plugs.

When I swap this stuff out on trials, I always send the proposed magic back. YMMV