Finally made a decision

[Tuggs]

Over the past month, I posted queries about particular amps, MF2275, MF2550SE, ET250S, LP125SA, LP275M.

What I ended up purchasing was...none of the above.

I decided on a pair of near-mint Premier Twelves to go with my CT5. Received them a few days ago, and the synergy with everything else in the chain is quite remarkable. Wondered how they'd handle my inefficient, supposedly demanding speakers at higher volumes. Well, some SRV at blues club levels told me I've got absolutely nothing to worry about.

Why 20+ year old amps? First, they're gorgeous, and they're easy to handle, size and weight-wise. I seriously considered the LP125SA, but that lump weighs more than I'd care to move about, especially as the years take their toll. Speaking of lumps, I didn't care for the kit-built look of those exposed transformers across the back. Call me shallow...

Second, I don't think I've read a single negative comment from anyone about this model. Strike that, the only negative comments related to these amps were from former owners who regretted selling them. Point well taken.

Last, but certainly not least, the price was easily manageable and guilt-free. No buyer's remorse or wishing I bought the newer "better" model. RJ's comment about "newer and better" resonated with me. Perhaps I'm not as golden-eared as some, but this setup leaves me wanting for nothing more.

[roberto]

Tuggs, congratulations. A very clever decision.

Happy listening!

[Tuggs]

Your experience and advice are always appreciated, Roberto.

[Nascimento Brasil]

Tuggs, when the B&W 801 Matrix S3 came out, I bought a pair of 801 and a pair of CJ Premier Twelves I remember very well that I played the 801 very well!

[roberto]

Your experience and advice are always appreciated, Roberto.

When you get the bug, you want to share it with everyone. Another truth is: Conrad Johnson sounds right! You surly are going to be in heaven. Just enjoy your new power amps! They are in a good hands now.

Happy listening!

[Big Dog RJ]

Very nice one indeed Tuggs!

This will be a mighty fine combination, especially with the CT5! I can easily imagine what you're getting... a very special combination...

At the time, with the Prem12's, we were using an interesting preamp very effectively with a combination of stats and ribbons (much older ML CLS, and Maggie MG3.5/r). This preamp was highly recommended by our trusted mate, LJ himself, and it was the PFR. In fact, his very own personal system comprised of this very same combination for many years. I remember exchanging so many emails, as we were all excited across 12 thousand miles away...

Obviously at that time no such thing existed as the CT5, only the premier 7 preamps, and ART preamp, which we later incorporated into our reference system with the prem 8A's.

Anyway long story short, what a beautiful sound these prem 12's are capable of. Your CT5 is jumping for joy! overwhelmed by two gems on either side! This is just about as good as it gets mate!

Cheers to CJ's premier series, what a legendary sound!
Superb stuff, no doubt! RJ

[roberto]

Hola Tuggs,

Please share your findings with your new toys, I do know that fun that you are now having with them...

Happy listening!

[lcasadonte]

Just wanted to say congrats! Hope you are enjoying them. I certainly am mine!

[jahatl513]

Congrats on the Premier 12’s. Your assessment is dead on. I am one of the people who bought and regretted selling. I just purchased another pair from Canada and imported them to USA. They are at CJ now for Teflon updates and a new integrated power cord, the same one CJ will sell you for your GAT pre or ART 150 amps.
I’m using a MicroZOTL pre amp with mine. I did let go of my GAT pre. As good as GAT is, I find the 6SN7 pre’s are my favorite. The Linear Tube Audio Micro MicroZOTL has the stepped attenuation like CJ and the $3400 pre plays as better than my GAT. There is one right now on USAudiomart for $3400 and they can be bought from the mfg and fee trial. They don’t come with 6SN7 tubes but I had a pair of NOS Sylvania WGT tubes and the unit can change to accept these 6SN7’s via jumpers. It is heaven. I’m listening to it on my MF2500a right now. The Premier 12’s before I sent them to be updated, were run using this pre and it was fantastic. I highly recommend the combination as well. The Pre 12’s will come back running NOS Svetlana Winged C tubes; a superb combination and never to be sold at all.

[Big Dog RJ]

Good stuff Jahat!

I can certainly second that mate. The prem12's are fine amplifiers. Will serve you extremely well, look after them well and they'll keep humming those fine tunes!

SED Winged C are fantastic tubes, LJ always recommended these when we used the Prem 11a right upto the Prem 8a monoblocks. Infact, one of LJ's personal reference systems at the time was the PFR preamp used in line with the Prem12's. It was an outstanding combination.

I have also used the Winged C on the EL34"s, and they're just as good. Although I still prefer the Mullards, the Winged C definitely has a wonderful sense of musicality. I enjoyed both types very much to such an extent, it was quite difficult to keep one or the other... Ended up with the Prem 11a on SED 6550C, Winged C on both the Prem 12's & 8a's. When passed onto to the next valuable customer, having the PFR & the Prem 12's, he was so delighted that when he packed up to return to the UK, he took the whole lot of amplifiers with him. Said he'd never leave without them but didn't mind leaving the Mrs behind... I guess that's what audiophile Doctors do when they need to head back homeland for winter, stay 6 months and head back to the tropics for another 6 months... but shipping across your system seems too tedious and nerve racking, for me...

BTW, what type of output tubes are you planning on the Prem12's; are they the 6550C or EL34"S?

Cheers mate and enjoy those fine tunes!
Best, RJ

[Tuggs]

Speaking of output tubes, when I received the Premier 12 amps three months ago, they came with current production Tung-Sol 6550s of unknown age. The first week or so of listening sessions were with these, no complaints at all. I then installed some new Gold Lion KT88s, and have had them in since. Before I draw any conclusions, I want to put the Tung-Sols back in for a while. I'll probably go back and forth a couple times to be definitive. Don't want to wear out the sockets though with too much OCD.

[lcasadonte]

I'm very interested to hear your thoughts.

[AnotherJohnson]

I assume you are rebiasing the tubes each time you swap them in.

That’s one of the very nice things about most CJ amps. Because you can bias each tube, you don’t have to have matched sets as you need with some others. And, if you follow the instructions patiently, correctly, and carefully, you can get a good result. You don’t need meters or a technician.

I think I’ve read on the ART flavors where 4 KT150s are used to produce 300 watts, that the tubes bias in pairs, so you need matched pairs at least. Might as well go for matched quads.

Of course everyone already knew this.

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey Tuggs,

That's great to hear that you're also trying out KT88's. You may actually prefer these over the 6550's, especially in the midrange and top frequency extension. If you want to go a step further, try out the KT120's. These beauties have all the attributes of the power of 6550's, midrange glow of the KT88's, full solid bass of the KT90's and that wonderful musicality of EL34's. However, this is my personal preference but you will have to choose.

One word of advice that I learned from a wise person, regarding power on & off on your amplifiers, try to keep the power up & shut down to a minimum. Each time you power off then adjust something in your system and power back on, this cycle of power up- actually reduces tube life. The more you do this, you will weaken the output tubes. Therefore, it's best to just leave it on whiles enjoying tunes and when you power off, just off it and leave it off until the next day. The more you change and swap output tubes for comparison, overall tube life shortens.

Actually it wasn't a wise man, rather a very wise lady, who's motto is "tubes rule!"

Just thought I'd share a small bit of advice.
Cheers mate, I trust you're enjoying those Prem12's to the fullest!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Good advice. And even better because it is true.

[lexx21]

Be careful about swapping in kt120 or kt150 tubes. They require more current, both plate and heater, and if your power supply isnt designed for it, your transformer will run hot for a while and then smoke. Those two tube types are not in the same category as a 6550/kt88. Yes they are big and impressive, but you have to design for them.

[AnotherJohnson]

True too. I would not put KT120s into a CJ amp unless JF said it was OK and offered an improvement (as in the case of the LP275M), or they were the stock tubes. I would be even more cautious with KT150s, and in the case of the LP275M JF says no.

Whatever tube rolling you do, be careful of the sockets, and don’t cycle the tubes themselves more often than needed.

[Big Dog RJ]

Uh! Didn't know or wasn't aware that JF advised against using KT150 in the LP275M'S, especially with those much larger transformers...

Anyway, with my LP125M's they're now going for a final SE upgrade, as it would take several weeks to complete. JF gave the go ahead on the KT120's when I received these amplifiers a couple years ago. A few things were adjusted here and there, more so to accommodate the CLX's impedence curve and that grip on the triple stators bass panels. Once that was done, I was enjoying it with the CT5 and it is still marvellous in every way. Then covid hit and things slowed down so shipping across parts was an issue. Now we've opened up slowly and I should be receiving more of those wonderful Teflons and Vishay resistors. So in a few weeks from now, those fine tunes should be even finer!

Referring to the KT150 tubes, yes I would agree that power supplies may have to be slightly altered to accommodate these much more powerful tubes. However, that's the beauty of CJ's power supplies, they're very well built and rock solid, stable current all the way, nothing flinches them unlike so many other so called highend amplifiers.

I remember when I had the little MV60SE and tried out the KT120's for the first time, what a revelation! That go ahead was given by LJ himself and since that was my ever first experience with KT120's, I've never had any other output tubes long term in my power amplifiers, they're simply outstanding!

The way I see it with these larger more powerful tubes is really not to blast things, rather to gain a more effortless drive and control from the amplifiers and the added current used to grip panels, that's the main criteria for me. I was told by LJ that by incorporating the KT120, since it's almost similar specs than the 6550 but with added punch, heft and solidness in the bass, these tubes will just cruise along... effortless drive no stress no sweat, and infact will last longer. He was absolutely right!

Anyway, if JF didn't recommend the KT150 on the LP275M'S, I guess he had his reasons. Would be good to know why though...

Cheers maties, enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

I won't speak for him, except to say that we discussed it when I got the LP275Ms, and he was definitely good with the 120s as an improvement, and did not recommend (at that time) putting KT150s as an alternative.

I bought the units from Steve Javaherian, but CJ had them in their possession for a thougough check out and retubing.

I had trouble when they arrived and so I was back and forth with Jeff and Steve. The end result was that Jeff's telephone trouble shooting was quite useful, and the problem turned out to be one of the 6922s that may have been compromised during shipping.

In any event, the issue with going to the bigger output tubes always comes down to the power supply and the tweaking that can be done with the available heat transfer paths.

I have to say that I can see no reason to bump up to KT150s for the LP275Ms... and would not invest in them as an experiment. 16 tubes is already on the order of $800, and I do keep a set of spares available ... in fact, I've got spares for every piece of tube gear I own, and the total must be $2000 worth of glass bottles sitting on the shelf.

I recently had what were billed as a pair of low noise EH Gold Lions from Tube Depot or possibly MojoTone. These went into a guitar amp's preamp section, and were worse than the originals. I took a pair of Tung Sols that I'd acquired from Upscale Audio, and they were a huge improvement.

That's one case where tube rolling was useful. Wish I could get my money back on the bad ones, but I've had them as spares for a couple of years, and it would be pointless to ask for replacements from that vendor.

[Big Dog RJ]

Thanks for clarifying AJ, now makes perfect sense.

Yes, agreed on the LP275M'S not needing KT150's, that would definitely be overkill or steroids may I say...
The pure muscle mass already on those monoblocks is more than plenty! I'm sure the KT120's are delivering some fine tunes indeed!

Cheers and have a good one.
RJ