LP 125 Sa+ VS. CL 120SE ?

[H2Odavid]

How does the current 120SE sound compared to the previous generation 125sa+? Both have the same power, KT120 tubes, and Teflon caps.

I am considering buying one or the other.

Thanks

[goldminer60]

I'm considering the same. Waiting for the upgrade price from CJ on the LP125SA. If the money is close I'll be going with the Classic 120SE. Read a review on the LP125SA, HiFi Plus I believe, and they were very concerned about the chassis build quality and tube access. Truthfully I've never read such a negative review on a CJ piece. I'll let you know what I find out and happy hunting. What are you considering for a preamp?

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,

Being a Classic One Twenty SE user, I can say that this amp has the shortest signal possible. It exhibits great control at the bass, robust and detailed, with superb mid range definition. The highs are silky and very transparent. The stage is wide and great 3D sense. The voices have a naturalness that to my ears, the quality sound is impeccable. The Conrad Johnson signature is evident, and the signal to noise ratio is fantastic. The dynamic contrast is wonderful, with tons of truly sense of realism. The piano is just there...and you can understand very easy what the left hand is doing vs the right hand. The musical notes are projected to the air with the right harmonic texture...it just reproduce how the signal is coming from the preamplifier. And of course, having four KT-120s on each channel, you do not have to be worried about power, because this baby really has POWER! I had played my system very loud, without any signal of stress or loosing any dynamics. I have to confess myself that I do not play too loud. I just did this for some people that they do not believe that an electrostatic speaker can't play loud. My CLXs they do can play very loud, without any signal of stress or distortion. Just pure, clean, cystal clear, transparent sound.

I play Spanish guitar, and at the recording I can say even what brand of the strings, the musician is using. I can call the type of the design fo the guitar. The Thomas Homphrey, Ovation, Ramirez, Garuncho, and Yamaha case, have a distinguish sound...and this is easy to tell. On the female voices, there are no sore throats, no flu colds, no nasal sound, just beautiful voices. The air at the exit of the wind instruments is life like. The size and the dynamic is very well reproduced. And then, the cymbals. Listen to the DMP recording of Steve Davis Project: Quality of Silence. The second track has one of the best cymbals test. The sound is breath taking.

You can't go wrong with this Classic One Twenty SE. This baby is not the top notch of CJ. There are much better power amps, but for what you pay and what you get, this is the best! Here are some reviews about this beauty:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/e ... fined.gbpl

https://www.hifiplus.com/articles/conra ... rs/?page=2

Happy listening!

[Big Dog RJ]

That's a definite comparison on the Classic 120se.

As Roberto has defined, both the power and finesse of the Classic 120se and the ability to drive a full range stat, such as the CLX's, which I also own, their virtually zero distortion and high tolerance of power, can deliver a true live performance without a doubt!

That lifelike performance that they're capable of must be backed by a power amplifier that is capable of handling serious impedence swings, produce and hold their current, possess highly stable power supplies and at the same time sound beautiful, delivering music in its most natural form during any playback level soft or loud. The music is portrayed in its purest form. That power amplifier is the Classic 120se.

Although the 125sa is a fine amplifier and does a fine job of real muscle power amplification, it was built on certain standards. The latest iteration to this power amp, as CJ continuously improves on its circuitry, in keeping things to a minimal, designing shortest possible signal paths, utilising fewer parts, utilising higher quality grade parts, and developing an amplifier that can hold itself steady all the way... The Classic 120se is basically that!

Another power amplifier that is a superb design if you can find one is the original ARTsa power amp, very well built and clean muscle power at its finest! However, this was also replaced by the ART150, so the ARTsa and ART monoblocks are very rare to come across.

My personal choice, if I was looking at stereo amps, would be as follows:
1. ART150
2. ARTsa
3. Classic 120se
4. 125sa

That would be the order of ranking, plus the pricing matches this ranking as well.
Just as a thought, if you are considering solid state, I would list only two of them that are of very high reference quality:
1. Premier 350a
2. MF2550

Trust you find what you're looking for, and all the best!
Cheers, RJ

[H2Odavid]

Here are my components. What do you think are the weakest points that should be upgraded first?

Amp- CJ Premier 11A
Pre-Rogue 99 Magnum
Power converter-PSAudio Stellar Power Plant 3
D/A- PSAudio Directstream Jr
CD player-lexicon RT 10
Speakers- Tyler Acoustics Highland 3.5
Sub-Paradigm 15A with X30 control unit
cables- 15 yr old HIghwire speaker cables and D/A cable and new Transparent Amp-Pre interconnects.

Thanks, Dave

[admin]

I think you will get a lot of opinions but looking at the list you have nice equipment already. In other words, you are not starting from a bad point where there is an obvious deficiency.

The first question you should ask is, "do you like the way your speakers sound?" Unless you have some really mismatched equipment (which you don't), the speakers will have the greatest effect on the sound. If you are not satisfied with how the system sounds overall, or just want a change, I would look at new speakers.

Presuming you really like the speakers, I think maybe the Pre-Rogue preamp would be on my list. I don't have to tell you which manufacturer I recommend.

The price point is obviously a major consideration. Are you looking to buy new or used? What is the budget? What are you looking to improve in the sound? Have you thought about not replacing any equipment and maybe looking into acoustic panels, new cables, or maybe an amp stand to augment the components you already own?

Lots of consideration and options. No simple answers.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, spot on there! I fully agree with Admin.

The system in place is just about fine! Nothing to change really...
The moment you "upgrade" over to the 125sa or the Classic 120se, that's going to be a big step up from the Prem11A... And then the vicious cycle begins, where you will want to upgrade everything! Not just the amp but there goes the preamp, speakers, source gear, cables, interconnects wiring and the list goes on...

In all honesty, I really wouldn't change a thing! Unless I was looking for a superb synergy between pre-power match up, then I would consider either a PV15 or a premier standard preamp, such as the Prem 17LS, Prem 18 or a newer ET series version like the ET3se or the new ET6. This will further enhance the best in musicality with a CJ pre-power combination. That would be a viable upgrade, money's worth.

If you're very happy with the Rouge Audio preamp, then as Admin suggested, perhaps the speakers would be the next option in "upgrades". Something that will certainly surpass what you've currently got in terms of: transparency, inner detail, resolution, soundstage depth, spacial cues, clarity and better dynamics with speed and control backed from a wonderful power amp, such as the 125sa or classic 120se. Then again the prem11A is just as fine, only slightly less in power output, that's all.

Like I said, the moment you change your power amp, don't think your upgrade train has stopped, get ready for a continuous upgrade express ... We've all been there!

I would seriously reconsider all my options, carefully listen to what I'm after, perhaps bench mark your system against another one of similar ranking but overall better clarity and definition, hence work your way towards that particular sound, and match the components in that system to your one, in order to create a personal custom sound.

By all means, changing the power amp, will be a major improvement but unless you match it with a top line CJ preamp, you're not going to get the "best" from the power amp upgrade, especially the classic 120se. It's a superb amplifier and requires the finest preamp as a front end with superb control. In which case I would recommend the ET7, GAT or ACT2 or a CT5, that's the level I'm talking about. If you're not quite ready to spend on the preamp, then I would first evaluate the speakers.
Just my 50cts worth, hope you find what you're looking for and let us know how it goes.
Cheers mate, RJ

[goldminer60]

I agree with a lot of the points that Admin and Big Dog have. My two cents, switch out the preamp. CJ has so many great ones, I guess your budget will narrow down your search. If you do make that move you're going to hear the definition of synergy, fabulous! At present I'm running a Premier 11A with upgrade paired to a Premier 17LS2. Like Big Dog said, it's easy to get caught up on the upgrade merry go round, patience is key. I just bought my ticket for the ride.

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah Ha!
Nice one there Goldminer, certainly looks like the beginning of a wonderful ride...
The Prem11A partnered with the Prem17LS2 is an outstanding pre-power combination. That would make virtually any speaker combination just sing! Higher the efficiency even better!
Enjoy mate, have a good one, cheers to wonderful Premier series of CJ!
RJ

[H2Odavid]

I cannot find any listings for the 17s2 online. I know it is about 20 years old. Any other recommendations?

Are there any excellent preamps with tone controls? Luxman has some on their integrated amps. I know it is taboo, but they would be nice for those old tinny sounding CDs from decades ago.

[roberto]

Hola H20David,

That's the reason why you don't find any tone controls on the Conrad Johnson preamplifiers. Not only it is a it is forbidden taboo, because this spoils the high quality, transparency, undistorted, clean, coherence, etc that you find on all CJ preamps. There must be a good reason why is this. With much respect, if you have bad recordings, you must accept them as they are. You can make the bad ones to sound brighter or with more bass, but not necessary better. With Conrad Johnson, the design circuit is made in a such way, that it touches the signal less than the other preamps.

Try to use a different speaker cable, as an example, the T-14 model made my DHLabs (www.silversonic.com). This cable makes to my old recording to sound as new recordings. Try it, you might like it as I do. Not too expensive cable, made in America.

I did find this review for you:

https://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/370/index.html

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Conrad-Johnson ... SwXENdfdAG


Happy listening!

[gktaudio]

Are there any excellent preamps with tone controls? Luxman has some on their integrated amps. I know it is taboo, but they would be nice for those old tinny sounding CDs from decades ago.

I've listened to many vintage and current production preamps with and without tone controls, and with and without defeat switches. There are plenty of truly excellent preamps that don't have tone controls - that began a couple of decades ago for the reasons stated by Roberto. There are also excellent vintage preamps and control preamplifiers with tone controls.

In my case, I'd rather be able to adjust tone than change cables (which changes capacitance and resistance, same as tone controls but more subtly), change my room around, change speakers, etc. etc. I listen to a wide range of source components and media that span 70 years or more, and a huge range of recording quality. Sometimes I want to make small adjustments rather than suffer through a recording. Having said that, I don't have preamps that cost more than $4,000, so I don't profess to be the judge of the very top tier equipment that might cause me to stop listening to marginal quality recordings or grit my teeth while I do so.

Some current preamps with tone controls include:
Luxman
Vincent
Parasound
McIntosh
NAD
Triode Corp.
Emotiva

There must be more; this is what I found in 1 minute of online research. You be the judge of whether these brands make a preamp of high enough sound quality for your tastes.

[admin]

Have you considered getting an equalizer that you can put in the chain? You could always remove it if you wanted a more "pure" sound and it would allow for a greater variety of preamps.

[ajf75]

Hopefully not offending anyone here, but I think it should be said that whether it is a good idea to employ tone controls or even equalizers is dependent on the type of listener, or put another way, dependent on the specific variety of audiophile you happen to be (ignoring that some don't like that term).

Some listen in a comparatively casual manner (but are sensitive to bad tone quality, poor freq extension, among other qualities), and then some expect a full on immersive VR experience whenever they dedicate the time to sit down and solely listen to well recorded music (with lights dimmed or off - goes without saying ). Those in the latter group, myself included, will tend to be the ones against tone controls in the circuit since achieving this type of experience from your system/room is no small effort.

OTOH, I am open to the possibility and always curious...if anyone here has had the opp to hear a system provide truly outstanding audio tricks in the form of very strong spacial/venue cues, all the subtle attack/decay info, strong sense of presence+body+specific 3D placement for individual singers and instruments, etc, etc - while tone controls were active, then please share.

I also feel that differences in audiophilism, as described, is a source of many forum arguments (not here at CJO of course) regarding what audio gear or tweaks are important, and of what is being heard. They ignore that they may not even be trying to achieve the same goals.

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,
First of all, I beg for your patience and understanding with me. Many times, I might sound impertinent, and it is me who could offend you with my statements. I truly wish that my vocabulary has more words to express myself much better.

Using a tone control or an electronic graphic equalizer must be use with much care. Why? As an example, the equalizer available on these days works by octaves. This means that you have a control for each channel, (usually twelve knobs) starting from 20Hz to 40 Hz, second from 40Hz to 80Hz, third from 80Hz to 160Hz, fourth from 160Hz to 320Hz and so. Each knob has a +- 12dB of contour. This is the dream of any music lover. But the truth is, it does more harm to the signal than to solve the problem. We have to add to the signal, the device harmonic distortion inherent, and it's own signal to noise ratio.

Using it wrong, we could change dramatically the sound of a Grand Concert Piano Steinway to a small cheapy piano. But viceversa, it is impossible. Each control varies the phase, and also varies the timbre. If you look an equalizer used by a non audiophile, usually appears the V shape at the control knobs. Tons of bass, and tons of high frequency. And no midrange. Why is this? Because our ears are very efficient with the midrange and not so good at highs and lows.

So this is what usually an electronic equalizer does: There is a on/off switch that allows to you to listen how the equalized signal is at on position, and when we switch to off position, we hear the difference and supposedly better when it is on. Here is where we are cheating our ears. This is a wrong procedure. The right way to do it, is to bring the preamp volume control to zero, do the switch and bring the volume control to the desired level...when using the equalizer, usually there is more intensity level, so the knob for the same SPL is at lower position. My point here is, that both SPL should be the average same level, no matters where the volume knob is. Then you can really realized if what you are doing to the signal is OK or not. It is your liking, and not necessary it is mine. And what I do like, not necessary must be your liking.

What I am trying to say is that at the recording studios, there are engineers who are doing the recordings. There are engineers and better engineers. The type of the microphones used for a particular recordings, and also how to emulate what they are hearing there...so the problem begins with the mics. Once the signal is applied and feeded to the recording console, we have to deal with their own distortion, the frequency response and all the parameters that could affect the tonal quality of the sound. The recording engineers had spent hundred of hours trying and moving the mics all over the place, to get the real event. We are getting closer. This is the main reason why I do not want to touch what they had done.

Nothing is comparable to the real thing, so the giant steps that the electronic engineers had done, I bow to them. On these days, we have musician(s) soul playing for us, at our own place. The fun playing and how well they performance. So here is where I want you to think about: why do we like Conrad Johnson over many other brands on the market place? Why Conrad Johnson is single ended? Why there is no bass or high equalization (it is called shelving filter equalizer) on Conrad Johnson preamplifiers? Why Conrad Johnson seeks is the shortest signal path into the circuit? Why Conrad Johnson uses the best industrial electronic parts into their goods? ... My dad had a saying: quality has no regret!

Happy listening.

[ajf75]

Each control varies the phase, and also varies the timbre

Yes Roberto! thanks for describing aspects such as this in more detail than I was confident enough to do.

Also, I think you touched on another problem with tone controls/equalizers...which is if you attempt to use them in a perfectionist manner and then change the volume - forget it! Because your ear/brain interaction with varying frequencies, as well as your rooms, will be different for any given SPL (which is the phenomenon that the 'loudness' button on mid-fi and some car systems is trying to address).

[goldminer60]

Hello David, I've been gone for awhile and see no more posts as of late and was curious if you were still on the perch, 125sa or 120se. It's amazing how the initial input / question, can be affected by the experience and opinions of others. Bravo Roberto, for your succinct introduction to graphic equalizers. The following is a short story if there is such a thing. When I started my journey I wanted separates but realistically could only afford an integrated amplifier. After considerable toil and harrassment by some, the cost, I got my amp and pre. The money spent oh lord, the ticket to nirvana, not? Where are my tone controls when I need them most? It took some time to realize that some recordings are better than others, just a fact. Of course as the adage goes, you get what you pay for but honestly I would argue that point because in my experience CJ delivers far beyond that. Maybe an integrated with tone controls is what you're looking for but considering what you already have may be a step in a different direction. Seldom have I read that someone is totally satisfied with their system. The few that do, I'd bet they're still reading reviews, auditioning gear and looking for others opinions. My wife considers it a form of insanity, if she only knew. Honestly she actually listens with me from time to time. One last note for what it's worth. I have a couple friends who use equalizers and they spend more time tweaking than they do listening, to each their own. Whatever you do don't forget to have fun.

[H2Odavid]

I am purchasing in steps. I just bought a new Transparent Plus interconnect between my Pre and Amp and the sound improved dramatically. Immediately I heard much more depth, and the cable has not even broken in yet.

After reading my current system setup, a few people here recommended my next purchase should be a CJ 17LS preamp. I found a newer version, the CJ ET5, used for not much more $. It should arrive in 1 week. Everything I have read says it will be a huge leap over my 15 year old, but good, Rogue 99 Magnum pre. After playing with that I will see how my system sounds and possibly consider an Amp as my next purchase.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[paulCJ]

Someone recently mentioned to me that interconnect cables should not be used as tone controls....and I had a good laugh...(and at the opposite end of the scale there are those that say that all cables sound the same....I laugh again, lol).
The idea of trying new interconnect is brilliant.
Roberto, admin, big dog, ajf and goldminer already gave great advice and insight that it is difficult to add any more, but if you still have a desire to tweak after you get the new preamp up and running, perhaps adjusting the subwoofer volume/crossover on those tinny/bass shy recordings could help correct issues with those poor sounding recordings without adding an equalizer that would take something away from the good sounding recordings.

[roberto]

I am purchasing in steps. I just bought a new Transparent Plus interconnect between my Pre and Amp and the sound improved dramatically. Immediately I heard much more depth, and the cable has not even broken in yet.

After reading my current system setup, a few people here recommended my next purchase should be a CJ 17LS preamp. I found a newer version, the CJ ET5, used for not much more $. It should arrive in 1 week. Everything I have read says it will be a huge leap over my 15 year old, but good, Rogue 99 Magnum pre. After playing with that I will see how my system sounds and possibly consider an Amp as my next purchase.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Hola David,

The first thing that you are notice with the ET-5 is its transparency. Is like that the unit is not there...and then the stage comes. I am seeing your big smile. Then the size of the musical instruments with a harmonic texture that I am sure you will get also goosebumps. You will notice your feet tapping the floor with the rhythm of the music. Then you realize how deep the bass is and the extension of the quality highs...also there are no nasal sound coming from the female voice...

Good buy! David. Quality has no regret! and the ET-5 is a fine product.

Happy listening!