Breaking in the Teflon Caps upgrade.

[admin]

Again, I vouch for the Solen's, but the teflons are mighty expensive.

[Big Dog RJ]

The Teflon and Vishay resistor upgrades I got done in my CT5 ( this was in addition to the existing Teflons) took ages to break-in and even then, it still sounded bit on the thin / lean side. It was squeaky clean though, very natural tones and great timbre... then when it finally finished its last hurdle... it suddenly shifted gears and went from ok - great- fantastic- superb! What a bloody roller coaster that was! Even the wifey noticed it.

I really don't know what the heck those Teflons are doing, I even asked Lew about it at one point... his answer was pretty much the same- don't really know what it is but exactly after the initial 100hr mark or thereabouts, the performance takes onto another level, it's remarkable!
Well, I said hell ya!

Mundorf and Dueland caps are also one of those that can take awhile to settle in, especially when used in speaker crossover units. The level of performance is top notch! It can also get very pricey. Some of the refurbs that Graz does over here upstate with Apogee's, he uses either Duelands or Mundorfs and the results are stunning!

Sometimes I do wonder whether it's imagination or just voodoo... but there's some science to it, and even the designers claim to experience major differences after the required burn-in time lapses. So there must be some science behind it.

The good thing is, after its done the required time and worked its magic, just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ

[tonye]

The caps are indeed expensive, the full upgrade (phono and line stage) for my PV9 was listed for $2K. About three years ago or so. The upgrade does include some initial break in at the factory, so that's going to be some Quality Assurance labor costs too.

Now then, I had shipped them the preamp for a repair and I asked them to look over the whole thing and replace things, normal caps, etc.. as needed. The estimate came in at around 800 bucks or so. After quite a few years of ownership, I figured it was a worthwhile thing to do.

So, I asked them if they'd make me a deal on the Teflon cap upgrade... after all, they already had the preamp opened on the bench, so they came back with a total bill of $2K, including a new box and shipping it back. So it was a no brainer.

The cap upgrade did take some time to break in, whether it was my getting used to the new sound or the caps changing, I don't know. I just know the sound changed: lower perceived noise floor... what Harry Pearson used to call "The blackness between the notes". It does sound better for sure, the music sounds less electronic, more natural... if you know what an instrument sounds like you can appreciate the change pretty quickly. But in due time, I did notice an overall better sound, a more natural sound, more realistic. It was gradual, whether it was me changing or the preamp changing I don't know... I do know it drove me to a new round of upgrades (LP12 upgrades, cartridge, amps, speakers) and I listen to my stereo a lot more than I did before.

Let's face it.. IT JUST SOUNDS RIGHT now...

[admin]

I think that was very reasonable for all the work that was done and the parts. It's amazing that these kinds of upgrades can be done on +30 year equipment and the manufacturer still supports these products. Very nice indeed.

[AnotherJohnson]

I think that was very reasonable for all the work that was done and the parts. It's amazing that these kinds of upgrades can be done on +30 year equipment and the manufacturer still supports these products. Very nice indeed.

If it’s end game gear, it’s nice. But if you eventually want to sell or trade and move up, the money invested in this sort of stuff isn’t recoverable. You get the enjoyment of the better sound compared to the old unit. That does have value … just not at the bank.

Vintage systems can sound incredibly good for what they are.

[tonye]

The way I look at it, spending $2K on a 30+ year old preamp which I bought for $2k ( I got it as a deal 6 months used )... to make it sound modern was a no brainer.

To replace it with a more modern, but still used, CJ SE line stage would run more than $4K, so I'm ahead. And then I'd be lacking the phono preamp.

Besides, I don't change components... I tend to buy and hold for a looong time. I may trade cars before I have to change the wiper blades ( we live in SoCal ) but I keep my audio components for ever.

And my vintage pieces have been all fully REBUILT to OEM specs... and it costs some serious money to take out each and every board, replace the failing/failed components, search for the often unavailable OEM replacements (part of the fun)...and end up with a component that works, and sounds, like it did the day it was designed and built. Wanna hear that Marantz 74 sound? 2325, done. High Speed Slew rates, done, Sansui -one owner, me. Powerful Japanese watts? Done, Kenwood -also one owner. Quad? Done, Marantz, Akai. Top notch 6550 sound? Done, ARC. Wanna hear an ADS L810... one owner? done!

But the only vintage components sound... vintage. The only "vintage" stuff I have that sound thoroughly modern are my PV9, LP12 and collection of DIY Pass Alephs.

Looking at prices, the PV9. fully upgraded, will sell for $3K, at least. Indeed, if you can find one in so, so shape for under $1000, you could ship it to CJ, blow $2K and end up with a unit that will have audio quality that you can't touch in a modern piece unless you spend lots of bucks. Audio Research is also quite good with their SP series preamps, but they don't maintain the tight control over their products.

My PV9 has been in for repairs/upgrade three times since '90. I forget the name of the tech, but it has always been the same guy and last time we were chatting he looked up the serial number and noted that he built it when new. Now, is that cool or what?

[admin]

If you found something you love, stick with it. I think this is the exact scenario where it does make sense to fully restore vintage gear. At 3 decades in, it's not gear anymore, but family!

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, 110% agreed!

And ...that's why I've done all the required mods and upgrades on my CJ gear as well, it's one of a kind. Nothing can replace it. Looking towards the future... I'll most definitely just keep it but if I ever needed to upgrade then that would be very different gear altogether.

Exactly as tonye (very unusual name btw, what does it stand for?) stated, replacing such gear for a so called "better sound" is going to cost an awful lot of $$$. If you can afford it and you simply must have the latest and greatest then by all means go for it! After all, it's a great thing to be able to own such gear, let alone spend around 100grand just for a pre-power upgrade... to some it certainly makes sense. The golden question or suspense is that it better sound darn good at that price, for you don't want the new gear to sound anything less!

I've come across quite a number of cases where the owner's upgraded just for the sake of upgrading, and then very reluctantly admitted that it wasn't worth it. At that point, after spending close to 6 figures... they realised that the overall level of improvement was just a small percentage. Most probably 5 - 10%! So what about the other 95% or so... well I reckon that gap was filled by all the hype and glorious reviews! Plus the mindset bar in what's referred to as Prestige, was set so high... that eventually it collapsed when the actual gear was discovered.

My personal benchmark in performance improvement has always been around the 40% mark. Still to this day, that 40% range is quite hard to exceed, let alone reach!

Just the other week, I was at a private demo with quite a lofty system. (Without mentioning brands); the speakers were horns (120grand), pre-power combo (80grand), source gear TT rig (60grand), digital front (80grand) and cables & accessories (50grand approx.) total system cost = 397grand (which includes a listening chair that costs 7grand...) is that addition right?
Anyway, as we were listening, the chap noticed that I wasn't enjoying the presentation at all, I kept fidgeting, moving further away and was not focused. He asked why, and these were my thoughts:

1. There was a bloody annoying hum! It hummed all the way through on the horns, simply because those horns are rated at 120dB sensitivity and the tube amps are way too powerful!
2. Tube preamp consists of 6 tubes, and it hums.
3. The monoblocks are rated at 400w triodes, and they cause the horns to hum due to the extremely high sensitivity.
4. Due to the lack of damping factor on the power amps to horns match- up, that hum eminates through the preamp as well, causing a continuous hum that is constantly lingering.

The rest of the gear (source gear and accessories) are fine! Excellent quality and very fine pieces of gear but what's the point in having all of this, especially when you simply can't ignore that background hum, and try to focus on the music...it just doesn't work.

When I pointed it out, his solution is that the horns are designed that way, so when volume is turned up, the excessive hum shouldn't be noticeable...uh? What a goose!
So, as I predicted, he wanted to come over and listen to my CJ & ML system, and also to hear what this "quietness" was all about. After 4.5hours of sheer musical bliss, he left shocked and stunned!!!

Just received an update from him this arvo, apparently he's going to get rid of the monoblocks and is thinking of a low powered SET single stereo amp... no s**t!!! Isn't that what I suggested in the first place . But you see, the thing is I'm no highly praised revewer or any well known audiophile persona... so that initial advice coming from us humble folk is usually ignored... until the real world slaps you on the head! Now, the other issue is, no one's really willing to spend 60grand on used monoblocks...and that's the price he wants! So I'm passing the word around locally, just to help.

My initial advice, from the very moment I saw the system, was to please get rid of high powered monoblocks, they're going to cause the horns to hum... and they sure did!
I suggested some SET amps from either Jadis, Audio Note, NAT, or Cary. I've auditioned these SET amps specifically on these very same horns, and they sounded wonderful! Rated at just 8 - 12w /ch pure Class A, it's all you'll ever need with 16 Ohm speakers having a sensitivity of 120dB.
*Obviously that dealer who suggested the big 400w triodes, had only one thing on his mind... $$$!*

Anyway, just goes to show that no matter how much gear money can buy, if you don't know much about system design and component matching, things can go awfully wrong... but it takes someone else to point it out!

Cheers, and enjoy those quality tunes!
RJ

[whnay1]

RJ,

this issue may be as simple as a ground loop. Ground loops are the most annoying problem to have.

The solution is not always simple. Sometimes having a new 8' - 15' copper ground rod can help but that is expensive. Others can be separate circuits and that costs money.

Sometimes one or more of the components may need to have the ground isolated with a cheater plug. As to which one is a guess.

I have heard ground loop hum on speakers with 88bd/w/m and it is awful.

I know a a CJ dealer who is ex NASA and deals with power issues. Call Jay Truitt at 718-644-9222 and he has a myriad of power solutions available.

The SET amps are equally subject to ground loop hum as an FYI.

Bill Nay

[AnotherJohnson]

The LP12 engenders this feeling of familial love too. In fact, in recent decades LP12s are identified by the name of the specific builder on the label. So you know exactly who built it.

I’ve stuck with my LP12s, even after trying many other “comparably priced” models because they’ve had fewer negative behaviors in use. I am not influenced by the idea that it’s family… that ship sailed for me with my first purchase of an ET3SE, and maybe even earlier with my experimentation with Krell.

Incidentally, I recently thought that my lesser LP12 might bring as much as $3000, but was schooled quickly by studying the actual closed sale market. As that deck is equipped (late 80s Greeves of Sheffield aframosia fluted plinth, Kore sub chassis, Cirkus bearing, late model Ittok arm, Mober Maxon DC motor and controller) it would likely bring considerably less in spite of its significant upgrades compared to the original LP12. I would love to find the market where a Teflon capped PV 9 can actually bring $3k. That’s the place I want to sell my second LP12.

Of course used selling price means nothing to the owner who intends to keep his gear. In some cases, like McIntosh from the 60s, the dream of high resale can come true. The last piece of 60s McIntosh gear I auctioned off went for nearly four times its original price, and it continues to rise in value as long as far eastern collectors remain interested.

I think it’s incredible that CJ continues to support these vintage units WHEN THEY CAN. And the fact that guys like Bill Thallman have continuously full work benches on the aftermarket proves that there’s significant demand.

Enjoy the PV9! I hope it serves you well for another 30 years.

[AnotherJohnson]

You do not need a ground loop to hear hum with 120 dB/W/m speakers and a tube amp.

And frankly “it could be as simple as a ground loop” suggests anything but simple. All hum is not from ground loops. It can also come from power supply caps (at 120 dB/W/m, you’ll hear everything). And there are other potential onboard sources too.

Yes, IT COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS A GROUND LOOP, but as RJ points out, this guys system is poorly matched, focused more on prestige than sound quality.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, understood but not in this case.

I asked one of my good mates, who happens to have the Coincident SET amps, rated at 18w, to lend these out since they've been sitting in storage. He tried them out and they're dead quiet! Even on the same preamp, although he was willing to lend out his Jadis pre.

So, just to prove my point... now the chap realised those massive monoblocks are way overkill for a very high efficiency horn based system. 120dB is no joke, even if a fly farted... it would drive those horns!

He's now keeping the Coincident amps until he finds a buyer for the triode mono's... the issue with that is, my other mate who actually owns the Coincident's, has found a buyer and has closed the deal. That buyer is coming from out of state tomorrow arvo ( Friday noon) to pick them up! Uh oh...
What a pickle!

It's a darn funny thing because this nearly similar setup I've experienced before way back in 98; Avant Garde Trio's driven by 400w Melos Triode amps, had the exact rumbling hum... it's as if a mini earthquake is happening inside the horns and there's no way around it. That owner (a former mate) then changed the amps to a Golden Tube Audio SET 18w, and it worked just fine! So, again definitely not a ground loop, just a complete mis-match on speaker's & amp. That was back in 98! Funny thing, same mistake being made now in 2023... and same horns! Just their top of the line Avant Garde Trio's.

Best, RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

Also, forgot to mention; that 400grand system had some of the grounding accessories by Shunyata and Nordost. So, looking at the amount of spend just on those accessories plus the dedicated AC lines and separate copper grounding as suggested, this system should have been squeaky clean, such that you'd be able to hear a mosquito change socks...
But it wasn't the case!

Like I said, the moment I saw those massive monoblocks hooked up to the AG's Trio's, I knew straight away what that rumbling was... initially I thought it was a party of mossies celebrating New years on the horns... but that wasn't the case either!

Anyway, all is in good thought now... at least he knows what the hum is all about and NOW he realises at what levels actual quietness should be!
Cheers, RJ

[tonye]

(1) TonyE is my name... .Tony E....

(2) I use HifiShark.com to check out prices. CJ products are relatively rare... so are PV9s... and even more PV9s that have been factory rebuilt and upgraded with the full teflon update ( I can't think I've ever seen one ). I figured $3K would be the price I'd put on it... but then, I wouldn't be in a hurry to sell this piece. Indeed, I have sold very few components in my life and then I regret it... like the ARC D70 MkII.... I had two, sold one, kept the other... I still regret it.

(3) The LP12 re sells quite well... but one thing you must do.... indeed, with all vintage upgrades, is to keep it OEM. If you're going to upgrade the motor, go with the Lingo/Radikal series. Also, some details are important... mine is all black with an Ittok black tonearm. Rather rare... Deviating from the OEM tends to destroy the re-sell value. Indeed, when I rebuilt all my vintage components the only think I might deviate is in the PS capacitors... going to a higher ESR value. It took us like 4 months to find the exact replacement transistors for a Sansui G-7500!

(4) Naturally, price it well. I don't understand the current market for vintage components that look good... take a look at the Marantz 2270 and 2325... their asking prices are nut.

(5) The DIY market is very interesting. I just bought a very nice First Watt DIY F4 amp and I'm setting up to build a clone Pass SiT amp -maybe two... the PV9 through the F4 is a revelation. Since the PV9 will swing 20V max, and a truly very clean 14V, the F4 can easily reach its full output of 25w into 8 ohms... and ~33w into the 6 ohms of my current speakers. Heck, the PV9 will actually overdrive the F4. I haven't seen many preamps that can swing so much voltage... mostly tube affairs and some rare FET like the Pass stuff.

(6) One last thought.... dedicated power lines are a real big upgrade. When we rebuilt our house, pretty much just left some studs.... we added lots of new lines... the stereo runs two dedicated 20A lines. the HT has three. The analog stuff runs separate from the digital stuff as well. We have NO hum issues. ( knock on wood.... ).

Anyways, enjoying my system....

[tonye]

Well, how time flies.

Since I originally asked the question, with my PV9, lots of things happened. We had the Wuhan Flu.... we all got stuck working from home... so my stereo got a lot of listening and I went on an upgrade path... all that money saved on gas, lunches, laundry...

The clone A5s were rebuilt, followed by a clone FW F4, then a clone FW F5, a DIY Audio Pass Pearl 2 phono with crazy BOM upgrades and front panel controls ( no DIPs to change things ).. then the clone Aleph 2s... Updated the LP12 to the Karousel and had it tweaked a bit more, AND most recently the ET3 that I had upgraded to ET3SE.

( Oh, I did pick up a pair of Audio Note AN-K LX and a pair of Elac Unifi-2 RB52s )... Don't laugh.. those Elacs are a steal in a back audio system for the likes of us. For most people, that's all the speaker they'll ever need. BUT, they are very sensitive to clean power and at 87db/watt, they need power.

Anyhow..what else...

Updated the digital to a Burson Play with the v6 classic op amps (have the vivids but haven't tried them yet ) using an Android Tablet as streamer. I ought to note that Tidal just upgraded their HiRez servings away from MQA and to true HiRez..

Oh, yeah, an RME ADI-2 Pro RS Black and new computer to drive it.

New preamp coming in as well ( DIY Audio Iron Pre balanced ) and new clone SIT4.

I think those are the highlights.... yeah... anyhow.

The preamp now has about 160 hours and it's starting to come alive... the PV9 took about 200 hours before it really hit its stride and after that it was romantic glory... Now the ET3SE is a at level nowhere as romantic as the PV9 (Teflon'd) but now, it is jelling. It gets out of the way of music.... like my way said..

The PV9 (teflon'd) sounded like the stage was well lit up with lights but the ET3SE sounds like, like they put a couple of spotlights on the players.

It doesn't sound like a stereo.. it sounds like music.

Which, pretty defines our hobby, huh? I'd guess, it just sounds MORE right to me.

200 hours is the knee burn time... after that glorious things happen.

[admin]

Sorry to hear about getting COVID. I just heard from my father that he came down with it the other day. Luckily it only looks like a bad cold for him. Hope everybody got through it ok in your family.

Sounds like lots of changes coming along. Should be fun.

When you say you are "using an Android Tablet" as a streamer, do you mean you are connecting it to the Burson Play via usb otg cable and using the native Tidal app to play music?

[tonye]

I only had the Omicron in Thanksgiving of '22. It felt like a very mild flu. Gone in two days. The only thing it did to me, that lasted, was that my taste for cigars disappeared. I used to smoke a daily cigar in the evenings.... now I think I've smoke like five cigars since. So, I'm sitting on almost 800 finely aged cigars in the humidors.

At the risk of getting political, the "latest" version is very mild too and the "manufactured hysteria" is too suspiciously timed to our political cycles. I'm not worried about it.

Yes, for 'streamers" I use either Windows PCs ( via Firewire or USB2 ) or Android ( via USB2-OTG ). I see no value spending megabucks on a "streamer".

[admin]

I'm commenting slightly from the other third we had this discussion but to the above as well...

USB2 can handle 24b/192k so that is not the issue. PCM 24b/192k is slightly above 9.2 mbps. USB2 spec is up to 480 mbps.

Not sure what the perceptible audio quality difference is between 96khz vs 192khz sampling rates, but maybe worth investigating. My bigger concern would be the source resampling the audio down to 24b/96k which can introduce unwanted resample artifacts. I typically like my final DAC to do any resampling (if at all) vs an upstream device. Android and windows are kind of known for having terrible resampling issues.

Yes, the wife factor must be taken into consideration!

[tonye]

Drivers... you just need to use the right drivers and all is -bit- perfect.

Historically, the audio world was (is) eons behind of the computer world. They were stuck to synchronous USB1 while we were doing asynchronous USB2 and USB3 in our hardware. I recall that it was about 10 years ago that the Audio world finally came to USB2 and we started to see 24/96 rates.

My M-Audio, Nuforce, Burson and RME all do 24/96 over USB2. The latter three, being newer, support USB3 as well. They do DSD over USB. I ought to try recording DSD.

[admin]

You are absolutely right, the correct drivers are needed. Very few player apps write proper bitperfect asio drivers unfortunately (android or windows). If there is a 24/96 limitation, it is most certainly driver based as USB2 has the bandwidth for any audio stream. No need for USB3.