Breaking in the Teflon Caps upgrade.

[tonye]

Well, it's been three years now. In the meantime, I updated my LP12 to the LIngo, Trampolin, new suspension, new Grado Master 2 and a complete rebuild and tune up by a guy who knows his stuff (Dan). I also have updated my amps ( DIY Pass Aleph 5 monos ) with new power supplies and a complete rebuild and rewire. I still have the original tubes in the PV9... so it might be time to replace them but since I only use that system about 20 hours a month (working from home now for two years) they have not seen much wear and tear.

So, as my wife says.... our stereo now "sounds like music, not a stereo".

So, yeah, those teflon caps do change over time. I figure my old PV9 is a truly modern preamp today: simple design and greatest parts.

Besides, it has two tape loops and a balance control. I use one of the tape loops for my "digital tape deck", but that's a different thread.

IMHO, those Teflon caps were worth it and their sound does settle over time.

[AnotherJohnson]

The Teflon caps are a hard sell the first time anyone is told they're a good idea. But if anyone ever actually goes for them, they become a believer. I've only known one guy who said he couldn't tell the difference ... and I think that says more about his discernment than it does about the Teflon caps.

The Teflon caps and premium parts that CJ uses in so many of their products really seem to separate them from the crowded high end.

[MattHooper]

Whenever I read audiophile hand wringing about break in...it reminds me I'm glad that for the most part I don't believe in it.

I've had friends who got new speakers that I listened to extensively the moment they were set up. A week, sometimes two or more later they say "you should listen to them now, I think they've really broken in."

I drop by and listen: nope. They sound just like I remember when they were brand new. Basically, the new owner's mind is "breaking in" getting used to the sound, which he attributes to the gear. (This is one reason why I sometimes pay attention to a reviewers initial impression of a speaker. If he reports that, for instance, it sounds a bit bright "before break in" it's likely that either it's because his previous speaker was less bright, or that he hasn't got used to the sound yet...which he'll attribute to the speaker breaking in rather than his perception changing. In that sense first impressions can be important IMO).


Generally speaking, I get a new piece of gear, I hook it up and start listening. I've never experienced break in with anything.

I understand lots of audiophiles have a different view of this.

[AnotherJohnson]

The differences aren’t in your range of mattering.

I had an experience tonight that was related to break in of speakers.

In hooking up the MA5200, I disconnected my F228Bes from the LP275Ms and connected them to the MA5200. I was having trouble with the MA5200, so I did not hook up the subwoofer.

After figuring out that the MA5200 was not up to snuff, I hooked the F228Bes back up to the LP275Ms, but left the subwoofer out.

I had bought the subwoofer not long after buying the F228Bes. It seemed like a plus because I was not completely satisfied at first with the lowest octave of the F228Bes. It seemed thin with a faster roll off than the spec sheet.

Tonight, taking the sub out of the system, I was impressed with how taut and clean the F228Bes were from top to bottom with no sub. I actually liked it better. I could go back and tweak the sub settings, but I really don’t see how things could get better.

I think a strong case can be made for speakers breaking in.

On the Teflon caps, my experience is that they sound great right when they arrive … but after a few hundred hours of use there are even further improvements in the openess, which I would characterize as greater presence.

I’ve had a lot of systems over the years, and some were good enough to show off differences, while others were not.

My wife used to be able to hear differences clearly, but couldn’t have cared less. I don’t think she can hear differences now … and she still could’ve care less. She listens to the music, not the sound.

[AnotherJohnson]

To help me and speed up the discernment issue, I have several specific, difficult to reproduce passages on a range of CDs. These are passages that do not sound right unless the system is tip top. It took me a long time to figure them out.

A final test is a vinyl recording of my Mother singing Gershwin’s Summertime.

I think Dick Olsher used to use a recording of his wife in a similar way.

[Joe Appierto]

I seem to remember the same thing. His wife Lesley (1948-2019) released a number of records.

[MattHooper]

The differences aren’t in your range of mattering.

I'm ridiculously picky about what it takes to get me to sit down in front of a sound system and listen - I'm a nut about the tone/timbre of a system being just right. I also work in pro movie sound all day, minutely manipulating sound, including literally matching the "air tone" of empty rooms, or the timbre of one sound to another so they can not be told apart by a listener, or literally balancing the levels of up to 50 different tracks of sound. My pals who review high end audio gear for magazines will sometimes defer to what I detect when I drop by to listen, as they feel I'm more sensitive than even they are to sound.

Which is all to say: I can promise you the audible differences described by audiophiles for break-in are well within my range of mattering

In my many decades in high end audio, I've yet to encounter an instance of break in, in any gear. And as above, I've seen claims for break in that strike me as perceptual misattribution. Add to that, the claims for an audible level of break-in being highly dubious on technical grounds, and it keeps me skeptical.

Again, in no way would I want to shut down anyone else's talk about break-in. I certainly recognize many audiophiles see it as a significant factor.

But, as I said, the idea of having to wait extraordinary numbers of hours for some components or parts to break in sounds like a true bummer (especially...if the phenomenon isn't actually something to worry about in the first place).

Cheers

[AnotherJohnson]

If you can’t hear it, it doesn’t matter.

I think the Fletcher Munson research is in play.

Your sensitivity to what others are describing is not as acute as theirs. You may be more sensitive in another area where they are less discerning.

This is not a criticism. We are all different

You can say with certainty that you don’t perceive differences. But you can’t say more than that.

FWIW, I hate audiophile descriptive language. It sounds so puffy and pedantic. Often, in an audition, I know whether it’s good or not within a few bars. But to describe it to an audiophile tries my patience. I could not be a reviewer.

As an aside, I know I tend to throw cold water on tube rolling. That doesn’t mean I think they all sound the same. I can tell that they don’t, often very quickly. My concern is that tube rolling is Quixotic and I hate to see new people get the bug. But that’s not fair on my part. Obviously tube rolling is good fun for some.

Aside #2, I would probably not go for cap R&R if I hadn’t learned the hard way, waiting too long, sadly, more than once over many years. I would definitely not go for the Teflon or SE versions of CJ if Jack Tozzi hadn’t talked me into it. I must have been feeling rich that day. I chose them without an audition. After that, I was hooked.

[roberto]

Hola Chicos,

Actually I am a total believer of the marvellous Teflon Caps. Being accustomed to my previous DAC, an Exasound E-32, just got my Holo May Kte version, and let me tell you that I was going to return the Holo back. Out of the box, the sound was about the same that I had, but I might say a little better. When I had 15 days s of listening, suddenly the stage collapsed and the musical instrument shrank and boy, I really got nervous. I also write in another forum and my appreciation of a new good was totally a disaster and I wrote thinking that the last config of that good made this to happen.

I was totally frustrated. My beloved sound was a mess and I checked everything and all the connections, all were good. I decided to watch tv with the wife, and leave the system on, to see what happens the next day.

About 20 hours after, a did play the same music and Oh boy, everything was back and better. I got more definition on things that were almost unheard. And the sound continues to improve. Now I think I hit the 500 hours, and the change is dramatic for better. The output stage of the DAC is a discrete class A. And I know that there are teflon caps too.

Listening to CC Revival, the guitar of John Fogerty is like magical sound. Been a musician myself, I noticed that he used three more guitars doing tricks behind to the music, not two. Also noticed the drummer. He is like a clock with the rhythm. And there are now more musicians that I never noticed as I do now.

This clarity is now what I have, and I am positive that this is due to the caps. I really love Teflon caps. The transparency, the timbre, the size of the musical instruments, the right energy for the percussion instruments, and voices projected to my virtual stage in the air, with much separation between all the musician involved at the recording, is granted.

A very happy listening to all!!!

[AnotherJohnson]

I’m glad to hear that things are back on track!

[roberto]

Thank AJ,

I was so frustrated that I thought I had something in my hearing ability. I did try my LPs, and wow, my system is singing very nice, then I realised that my new DAC was the culprit. And thanks to God, it was...so that makes me think. What could possible made that to happen? The only thing was the DAC and it was on both channels. Another question arises: Why both channels are not sounding as they should? They do not have anything in common. All is double. Double power supply, and double DACs, Oh, yes they do have something in common, the AC power cable.

Imagine a country road, where is very difficult to drive where potholes are everywhere...then suddenly you are in a super highway where high speed driving is available. The change took less than 20 hours...how is this possible? Am I crazy? Please do not answer my last question...hahahaha.

Right now, I don't have any speaker in front of me, you can not tell how this virtual stage is possible. Using 44.1KHz/16 Bit, the sound is amazing...transparent, coherent, a lot of details, with much vivid sound, and enjoying these great musicians.

Thanks again AJ!

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

Sometimes it can be exasperating.

I’m convinced that we often evaluate things too quickly. I like the idea of letting properly functioning new products cook for a few days.

Incidentally, Happy Upcoming Birthday!

[roberto]

Yes, the dac is a present from me to me. I am right now warming it up for a long pleasant listening. It takes about 15 minutes and the waiting is granted with marvelous music, and super enjoyable.

Thanks for the birthday welcome. I just got a call from my daughter saying that we have to get soon to plan what I would like for lunch. I said, the left overs are fine. All I want is spend the time with you, and all the family. She said, dad I love you!

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

You should go the day before (Birthday Eve) for a big lunch. Then the leftovers will be no work.

[admin]

Glad to hear everything is on the up and up with the Holo Audio DAC. I've been really enjoying mine. Definitely settled in the NOS mode as being the best. I don't know how many hours I have on mine, but it's definitely at least a few hundred now and I'm really happy.

[roberto]

You should go the day before (Birthday Eve) for a big lunch. Then the leftovers will be no work.

[whnay1]

The CJD Teflon Caps were, at one time, made by Electrocube who had acquired F-Dyne and a few other companies. CJ has a Custom Made Teflon Caps and only specific values - 2.0uf, 1.0uf, and .1uf. (They may still use some 0.47uf caps)

The cost of Teflon itself is going off the charts even before the Inflation we have seen in the past year. CJ does a superb job of managing its raw material inventory and has an ample supply of Teflon Caps on hand.

Not all teflons are the same but most are good. I prefer the Aural characteristics of the CJD Teflons to others in part because of my bias towards CJ's sound over the years. Each of us may vary in that regard.

What is not at issue is the break in period of 400-500 hours and the fact it could cause a stroke as it goes from worse to better to worse to weird to better. After 120 hours or so the highs open up, become more extended, the dynamics improve, and its tonal balance is without peer.

I just added a new CJD teflon to the tweeter part of my passive crossover to replace one that I accidentally snapped the lead off. I was pissed. This was a 0.47uf cap and my cost as a CJ dealer is $225!I use 4 of the 2.0uf's in the crossover and they are real expensive.

The break in can be done by hooking up a receiver to them and playing them softly for a week or play them for 2-4 hours per day. You will start to hear the difference.

Those of you who get the C1 upgrade to one of the older devices it is worth it and, yes, you will have to break them in. It is worth the wait.

I have experience with CJD Teflons going back to the early 2002 timeframe.

[admin]

Interesting, I was not aware of Electrocube being the original supplier of CJ caps.

Wow, that is a pretty expensive cap. I guess nothing but the best and you pay a hefty premium.

I've used some Solen caps in some equipment I have modded and would recommend them to anybody.

[whnay1]

Solen is great. They have great chokes (litz) and non inductive resistors for my passive xovers/

[roberto]

Hol Chicos,

What a great electronic components are available on these days. And some are very expensive. This does not means that you can find great well built and having a super quality. Of course, you have to spend some time searching and digging in Google. Also the same components price varies. There is a Canadian Company that has a lot of good prices and good components. Take a look of this link below:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitors-ele.html

https://www.partsconnexion.com/cgi-bin/ ... eflon+caps

Happy listening!