Hi,
I just joined this site. I was doing research regarding the Art 150 and the Classic 120 because I was looking to upgrade my power amp (which is the Premier 11A). A lot of the discussions on the message boards of this site convinced me to audition the ART 150. Luckily I have a CJ dealer nearby and was allowed to do extensive auditioning before making the decision to purchase it.
I just got the 150 yesterday so it is early in the break-in period. I have the 17LS preamp and a Rhea Phono Preamp. I pretty much only listen to vinyl. My turntable is the VPI SuperScoutmaster with rim drive and I have Quad 2905s.
The main difference I notice between the ART 150 and the Premier 11 is that the ART has more extended high frequencies and can play at a louder sound pressure level without sounding grainy and compressed. That was one of the biggest reasons that I was looking to upgrade from the 11A. I love the midrange of the 6550 based 11A, but at least for me, it is not the last word in high frequency execution. The ART 150 even at this early stage of break-in has more extended dynamic range at the low and high ends.
The sound staging/transparency is not yet great at this point in break-in. But, based on my experience with CJ amps, I expect that this will improve with time.
It definitely runs hotter then the 6550s in my 11A. The tubes really are beautiful to look out. I like the overall design although I don't like how you screw down the tube case from above because I have the amp on the bottom row of a rack so it is impossible to access....I have to take it off the rack to install the rack or adjust bias. That is my only criticism with the ART so far.
I will provide updates as my journey begins. Thanks to Admin for starting this site and to all those that contribute with their messages and information. The information on this site helped me to steer toward the ART 150 and I am grateful.
Best,
Greg
New ART 150
Re: New ART 150
Welcome to the site and I can say, hang in there as the first time my amp changed in break in was about the 100-150 hour mark and it was a noticeable and lovely change. You now have what I believe is going to be a talked about CJ Classic; the ART 150 SA
Re: New ART 150
I am familiar with the sound of the Classic 62SE. My system does not need the extra power of the ART 150. What benefit, if any, would be gained with using the much more expensive amp? Since I can't audition these amps side by side I'm hoping those of you with experience can offer their opinions. Thanks.
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Big Dog RJ
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- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: New ART 150
Ahhh, that's a long story, no time now, it's past 4am, just finished off work, need to hit the sack
Until then, if someone can please provide the necessary info to bear, that would be great!
I'll get back to you soon as I get a chance.
It is a VERY good question! One that will open a lot of minds and get people thinking...
Cheers mate, have a good one. Your Classic 62SE is an outstanding amplifier.
What speakers are you using by the way? And what preamp?
Cheers, RJ
Until then, if someone can please provide the necessary info to bear, that would be great!
I'll get back to you soon as I get a chance.
It is a VERY good question! One that will open a lot of minds and get people thinking...
Cheers mate, have a good one. Your Classic 62SE is an outstanding amplifier.
What speakers are you using by the way? And what preamp?
Cheers, RJ
Re: New ART 150
Big Dog, looking forward to your response.
My preamp is the GAT S2, the speakers are the Klipsch LaScala II.
These speakers are so efficient that I can use a single ended triode amp and reach loud listening levels with no problem. But I have tried 2A3 and 300B amps and did not care for the sound. I have always found, that all things being equal, the higher the power the better the sound. Now with the 105 dB efficient Klipsch you are never using more than a fraction of a watt at most times. I never listen past 90-95 dB levels in my listening room. I don't know why amps with more power sound better when you are never using the power they can give. Always been a mystery to me. I remember hearing the Avantgarde Duo horns with a 1000 watt Goldmund amp! The sound totally opened up. Balanced Audio Technology designers have stated the same thing for years. They always said the more power on their Avantagrde horns, which they own, the better.
The Art 150 is about double the weight of the Classic 62SE , VERY expensive, gives off more heat, uses more electricity and costs more to re-tube. All negatives. So what is gained from the already very good sound I get from the 62SE?
My preamp is the GAT S2, the speakers are the Klipsch LaScala II.
These speakers are so efficient that I can use a single ended triode amp and reach loud listening levels with no problem. But I have tried 2A3 and 300B amps and did not care for the sound. I have always found, that all things being equal, the higher the power the better the sound. Now with the 105 dB efficient Klipsch you are never using more than a fraction of a watt at most times. I never listen past 90-95 dB levels in my listening room. I don't know why amps with more power sound better when you are never using the power they can give. Always been a mystery to me. I remember hearing the Avantgarde Duo horns with a 1000 watt Goldmund amp! The sound totally opened up. Balanced Audio Technology designers have stated the same thing for years. They always said the more power on their Avantagrde horns, which they own, the better.
The Art 150 is about double the weight of the Classic 62SE , VERY expensive, gives off more heat, uses more electricity and costs more to re-tube. All negatives. So what is gained from the already very good sound I get from the 62SE?
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Big Dog RJ
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- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: New ART 150
G'day mate, how's it going...
I'll try to keep it simple as possible and to the point:
First of all the Classic 62SE (BTW this was the last stereo amp I was using just before replacing with the LP125m's).
It all depends on the speakers and your room. Also the preamplifier, in terms of gain and full control on the power amp to drive the speakers effortlessly. Since you're using the GAT, no issues here whatsoever.
The speakers you're using, Klipsch Lascala, excellent! And your room sounds fine since you're probably getting a very good soundstage with effortless dynamics and good level of scale and depth.
It is basically these three areas that are geared up a few notches when using larger amplifiers, such as the ART150. Three areas I'm referring to:
1. Dynamics
2. Depth & scale
3. Soundstage presence
With smaller amps, these three areas are more intimate, and blend very nicely in smaller rooms, allowing for a more cohesive balance. The highs are extended smoothly, lush / rich mid-range and very musical bass, not overpowering. When all these elements are in synergy, there is really no need to change unless...
A larger room was planned / larger speakers were used that required more power to drive/open up, and if the sense of realism and scale was lacking... Then a much more powerful amp would fix all these problems, and the ART150 would certainly deliver all these areas in full swing!
The Classic 62SE is a beautiful amp, it has the classic CJ sound, it uses the KT120's and has high quality upgraded parts compared to the standard version. It delivers around 60-70w /ch which would be more than adequate to drive most realistic speaker loads.
Now let's compare, just as an example, to what I was using before on the Classic 62SE:
Preamp: pv15
Power amp: Classic 60SE & later on the 62SE
Speakers: Martin Logan Ethos (stat hybrids).
Now, with the above system, the Classic 62 was effortless mainly because the Ethos are 92dB efficient, and have built-in bass amplifiers to drive both bass drivers with 250w of Class D power. Therefore, all the classic 62 had to do was focus on driving the panels, easy!
The preamp was also more than adequate, since it had to only control and guide the required level settings, there was no need for larger power supplies on the preamp in order to fully grip the amplifier in any way to handle difficult loads, all it had to was set volume and get out of the way, which it did very nicely and most of all with a high level of musicality.
Now, the parameters have changed, mainly because the speakers have changed to: Martin Logan CLX Art.
These are still quite efficient, around 91dB BUT the impedence swings are notorious! 16-20 ohms on the highs and down to 0.7 ohms on the low swing, which is less than 1 ohm. This type of impedence curve can cause most amps to shut down, even though they may be rated at very high power, such as 300-400w/ch, again doesn't mean anything.
It is rather a well designed output stage, with solid hefty power supplies, and plenty of high capacitence to deliver the required current and headroom to drive the speakers, whiles handling this impedence curve, which will vary quickly in a blink of an eye, not slowly...
Hence, this is where many so called high powered amps, and mostly SS look pretty good on paper but in reality cannot deliver the required stable current, to continuously drive the speakers for extended periods.
The beauty of CJ's top end power amps, plus any of their monoblock designs, come fully equipped with very stable power supplies, plenty of high quality capacitence, and plenty of headroom, to effortlessly drive any speaker load. Therefore, even the Classic 62SE will certainly drive my CLX's but in order to achieve those three critical areas of dynamics, scale & realism on a more effortless factor, without straining the power amp, using a larger power supply, together with higher output, especially on tubes, will definitely deliver a far greater factor of those areas. And the speakers will react to the amplifiers driving them, in such a way it is definitely felt, especially in the soundstage and across the frequency spectrum, it is also highly palpable where you can feel the full emotions of the performance right in front of you.
The ART150 is no ordinary 150w/ch power amp. It is a super amp utilizing the best output tubes, high powered KT150's, allowing greater current capacity along with high voltage drive, can easily handle large speakers with difficult loads. The ART150 along with the right preamp, takes you so much closer to the soundstage, where you can actually get up and walk onto the stage where the performers are located in the room, it's unbelievable!
I suppose the Classic 60se series would also provided these finer details but the ART150 certainly takes it to another level. The moment you hear it, it doesn't take long to realize its true potential.
That basically sums up the comparison. However, if your current power amp is providing the true live affect in full glory then there is certainly no need to change it! It's only when we think a change must be in place, simply because someone said so in a review, and the item costs a whole lot more, oh great! We just went and spent our money on some gear that costs ten times more but only provided a 10% increase in sound quality... What a waste!
To me this is not justifiable, unless the so called upgrade provided a margin of around 50% and above, which means the added component made a significant difference in the overall performance of the system. And only YOUR ears can be the final judge to this audition!
So with that in mind, now you can probably get an idea of what the ART150 is capable of but whether it is required to drive your speakers to further levels of refinement and resolution, is yet to be decided...
Enjoy your classic amp, they're going to be rare amplifiers in time to come.
Cheers and all the best, RJ
I'll try to keep it simple as possible and to the point:
First of all the Classic 62SE (BTW this was the last stereo amp I was using just before replacing with the LP125m's).
It all depends on the speakers and your room. Also the preamplifier, in terms of gain and full control on the power amp to drive the speakers effortlessly. Since you're using the GAT, no issues here whatsoever.
The speakers you're using, Klipsch Lascala, excellent! And your room sounds fine since you're probably getting a very good soundstage with effortless dynamics and good level of scale and depth.
It is basically these three areas that are geared up a few notches when using larger amplifiers, such as the ART150. Three areas I'm referring to:
1. Dynamics
2. Depth & scale
3. Soundstage presence
With smaller amps, these three areas are more intimate, and blend very nicely in smaller rooms, allowing for a more cohesive balance. The highs are extended smoothly, lush / rich mid-range and very musical bass, not overpowering. When all these elements are in synergy, there is really no need to change unless...
A larger room was planned / larger speakers were used that required more power to drive/open up, and if the sense of realism and scale was lacking... Then a much more powerful amp would fix all these problems, and the ART150 would certainly deliver all these areas in full swing!
The Classic 62SE is a beautiful amp, it has the classic CJ sound, it uses the KT120's and has high quality upgraded parts compared to the standard version. It delivers around 60-70w /ch which would be more than adequate to drive most realistic speaker loads.
Now let's compare, just as an example, to what I was using before on the Classic 62SE:
Preamp: pv15
Power amp: Classic 60SE & later on the 62SE
Speakers: Martin Logan Ethos (stat hybrids).
Now, with the above system, the Classic 62 was effortless mainly because the Ethos are 92dB efficient, and have built-in bass amplifiers to drive both bass drivers with 250w of Class D power. Therefore, all the classic 62 had to do was focus on driving the panels, easy!
The preamp was also more than adequate, since it had to only control and guide the required level settings, there was no need for larger power supplies on the preamp in order to fully grip the amplifier in any way to handle difficult loads, all it had to was set volume and get out of the way, which it did very nicely and most of all with a high level of musicality.
Now, the parameters have changed, mainly because the speakers have changed to: Martin Logan CLX Art.
These are still quite efficient, around 91dB BUT the impedence swings are notorious! 16-20 ohms on the highs and down to 0.7 ohms on the low swing, which is less than 1 ohm. This type of impedence curve can cause most amps to shut down, even though they may be rated at very high power, such as 300-400w/ch, again doesn't mean anything.
It is rather a well designed output stage, with solid hefty power supplies, and plenty of high capacitence to deliver the required current and headroom to drive the speakers, whiles handling this impedence curve, which will vary quickly in a blink of an eye, not slowly...
Hence, this is where many so called high powered amps, and mostly SS look pretty good on paper but in reality cannot deliver the required stable current, to continuously drive the speakers for extended periods.
The beauty of CJ's top end power amps, plus any of their monoblock designs, come fully equipped with very stable power supplies, plenty of high quality capacitence, and plenty of headroom, to effortlessly drive any speaker load. Therefore, even the Classic 62SE will certainly drive my CLX's but in order to achieve those three critical areas of dynamics, scale & realism on a more effortless factor, without straining the power amp, using a larger power supply, together with higher output, especially on tubes, will definitely deliver a far greater factor of those areas. And the speakers will react to the amplifiers driving them, in such a way it is definitely felt, especially in the soundstage and across the frequency spectrum, it is also highly palpable where you can feel the full emotions of the performance right in front of you.
The ART150 is no ordinary 150w/ch power amp. It is a super amp utilizing the best output tubes, high powered KT150's, allowing greater current capacity along with high voltage drive, can easily handle large speakers with difficult loads. The ART150 along with the right preamp, takes you so much closer to the soundstage, where you can actually get up and walk onto the stage where the performers are located in the room, it's unbelievable!
I suppose the Classic 60se series would also provided these finer details but the ART150 certainly takes it to another level. The moment you hear it, it doesn't take long to realize its true potential.
That basically sums up the comparison. However, if your current power amp is providing the true live affect in full glory then there is certainly no need to change it! It's only when we think a change must be in place, simply because someone said so in a review, and the item costs a whole lot more, oh great! We just went and spent our money on some gear that costs ten times more but only provided a 10% increase in sound quality... What a waste!
To me this is not justifiable, unless the so called upgrade provided a margin of around 50% and above, which means the added component made a significant difference in the overall performance of the system. And only YOUR ears can be the final judge to this audition!
So with that in mind, now you can probably get an idea of what the ART150 is capable of but whether it is required to drive your speakers to further levels of refinement and resolution, is yet to be decided...
Enjoy your classic amp, they're going to be rare amplifiers in time to come.
Cheers and all the best, RJ
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Bill Stevenson
- Pro
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:36 pm
Re: New ART 150
Bear,
Everything that RJ said is correct AFAIK. I would like to add that all Klipsch speakers are very easy loads for any amplifier to drive. From a power point of view you will never tax your Classic 62SE driving your LaScala IIs. Never. So the principle difference in sound between the 62SE and the ART150 is not going to come from power changes. That makes a decision to trade up difficult to rationalize on the most usual basis. I believe there to be some sonic differences between the KT120 power tube as used in the 62SE, and the KT150 power tube as used in the ART150, but I would speculate that those differences are not great. My reason for saying that is that, as I understand it, most of the sonic characteristics of tube amps come from the voltage regulation stage, that would be the wee 12AX7 tubes, not from the current boosting power tubes, which are the big KT120 or KT150s. So with all that said I would speculate that because your LaScala IIs are a very efficient and easy load to drive for either amplifier, your 62SE is not being heavily taxed at all, therefore, the advantages that the ART150 has over it would not be particularly noticeable or easily justifiable.
Take care,
Bill
Everything that RJ said is correct AFAIK. I would like to add that all Klipsch speakers are very easy loads for any amplifier to drive. From a power point of view you will never tax your Classic 62SE driving your LaScala IIs. Never. So the principle difference in sound between the 62SE and the ART150 is not going to come from power changes. That makes a decision to trade up difficult to rationalize on the most usual basis. I believe there to be some sonic differences between the KT120 power tube as used in the 62SE, and the KT150 power tube as used in the ART150, but I would speculate that those differences are not great. My reason for saying that is that, as I understand it, most of the sonic characteristics of tube amps come from the voltage regulation stage, that would be the wee 12AX7 tubes, not from the current boosting power tubes, which are the big KT120 or KT150s. So with all that said I would speculate that because your LaScala IIs are a very efficient and easy load to drive for either amplifier, your 62SE is not being heavily taxed at all, therefore, the advantages that the ART150 has over it would not be particularly noticeable or easily justifiable.
Take care,
Bill
Re: New ART 150
Hi Bill,
I can only say that the KT150 tube in the CJ ART150 is something that one should go and audition. It is so totally amazing that for me it was a game changer. Not going to bore you with trying to describe what it does.
For me and what I was looking for in an amp it was a must have! 150 watts with 2 tubes per side is just my cup of tea and the sound is just so ?.
Enjoy,
Woofer
PS: Even at almost 4 times the price I still say its worth it! Again just a subjective opinion, as there are no absolutes in audio.
I can only say that the KT150 tube in the CJ ART150 is something that one should go and audition. It is so totally amazing that for me it was a game changer. Not going to bore you with trying to describe what it does.
For me and what I was looking for in an amp it was a must have! 150 watts with 2 tubes per side is just my cup of tea and the sound is just so ?.
Enjoy,
Woofer
PS: Even at almost 4 times the price I still say its worth it! Again just a subjective opinion, as there are no absolutes in audio.
Re: New ART 150
Wow! What a response from Mr. Big Dog. An extremely well written essay that every audiophile should read.
Some points to note. I love the LaScalas. I attend live orchestral concerts very frequently. Nothing comes closer to the wide dynamic swings of music than this Klipsch model. But the truth is that the dynamics of a Mahler symphony in the concert hall is shocking and no stereo system can even come close. That being said I have heard both Bill's speaker and all of the Martin Logan ESL's except for the CLX Art. I am even familiar with the Neolith. I can only imagine what these would sound like with CJ amplification. I've always heard these speakers with inferior solid state such as Mark Levinson and was not impressed. The potential is obvious though and the CLX is probably the best. To blend a woofer with the ESL panels seems impossible to do perfectly. Bill's speaker is also excellent with different strengths than horns or ESLs. What we all have in common though is the recognition of how good the CJ electronics sound.
The LaScala is,as has been noted, very easy to drive. My 62SE is coasting along effortlessly. But the Klipsch has a 15 inch woofer. I get strong bass to about 50 Hz. If I put a solid state amp in the system the bass tightens up, an upper bass thickness lessens and the highs extend further. But these improvements with solid state come with a big downside: things sound much less real so ultimately the conrad johnson tubes make a quick return. If I choose to upgrade to the Art 150 or even the 120SE I would hope that I would get closer to the solid state strong points while keeping the CJ musicality. The ART 150 and the 120SE have much bigger transformers than the 62SE. Would this help improve the frequency extremes?
One last thought. Whenever you change something in your system it is always a balancing act between what changed in the sound vs.what money it costs. I have many times, through this audio journey of mine to replicate what I hear in the concert hall, spent dollars and have not improved the sound. Sometime it is a sideways move, and sometimes worse. The thing is you never know until you get the new product in your system and live with it for a while. That is why I thank all of you on this site for giving me insight on what things may sound like.
Some points to note. I love the LaScalas. I attend live orchestral concerts very frequently. Nothing comes closer to the wide dynamic swings of music than this Klipsch model. But the truth is that the dynamics of a Mahler symphony in the concert hall is shocking and no stereo system can even come close. That being said I have heard both Bill's speaker and all of the Martin Logan ESL's except for the CLX Art. I am even familiar with the Neolith. I can only imagine what these would sound like with CJ amplification. I've always heard these speakers with inferior solid state such as Mark Levinson and was not impressed. The potential is obvious though and the CLX is probably the best. To blend a woofer with the ESL panels seems impossible to do perfectly. Bill's speaker is also excellent with different strengths than horns or ESLs. What we all have in common though is the recognition of how good the CJ electronics sound.
The LaScala is,as has been noted, very easy to drive. My 62SE is coasting along effortlessly. But the Klipsch has a 15 inch woofer. I get strong bass to about 50 Hz. If I put a solid state amp in the system the bass tightens up, an upper bass thickness lessens and the highs extend further. But these improvements with solid state come with a big downside: things sound much less real so ultimately the conrad johnson tubes make a quick return. If I choose to upgrade to the Art 150 or even the 120SE I would hope that I would get closer to the solid state strong points while keeping the CJ musicality. The ART 150 and the 120SE have much bigger transformers than the 62SE. Would this help improve the frequency extremes?
One last thought. Whenever you change something in your system it is always a balancing act between what changed in the sound vs.what money it costs. I have many times, through this audio journey of mine to replicate what I hear in the concert hall, spent dollars and have not improved the sound. Sometime it is a sideways move, and sometimes worse. The thing is you never know until you get the new product in your system and live with it for a while. That is why I thank all of you on this site for giving me insight on what things may sound like.
Last edited by bear on Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: New ART 150
2bdude, I have owned the Avantgarde Duo Omegas G2 before getting my La Scalas. I see you are using the ART 150 on the horns. Agree with you that all the single ended triodes don't come close to great push pull. The Duos have a self amplified bass below about 170 Hz, if I remember correctly, so the comparison to the Klipsch LaScala II amplification needs is slightly different. Would love to have heard that combo, never had CJ on my Avantgardes. Great to see another horn lover on this site!
Re: New ART 150
Hi Bear,
I sold my Duos 2 weeks ago. After 14 years with them I was ready for a change in that system. I am moving to a conventional cone speaker. My next combo is the Harbeth 40.2 Anniversary matched to the ART150 in a near field configuration.
The Harbeths have a unique mid range magic and it was a conscience choice to get as neutral an amp and preamp combo from CJ. The ET7 Series 2 /ART150 fits the bill. I want as linear sound as possible and still keep the CJ magic.
I like the direction of the newer CJ products. For me the tighter bass and increased dynamics is what I am looking for. The imaging and the mid range in my opinion has not been compromised. The increased clarity and lower noise floor also makes it all the better in my set up.
I have been a CJ man since the !980s and it just keeps on getting better!
Enjoy
I sold my Duos 2 weeks ago. After 14 years with them I was ready for a change in that system. I am moving to a conventional cone speaker. My next combo is the Harbeth 40.2 Anniversary matched to the ART150 in a near field configuration.
The Harbeths have a unique mid range magic and it was a conscience choice to get as neutral an amp and preamp combo from CJ. The ET7 Series 2 /ART150 fits the bill. I want as linear sound as possible and still keep the CJ magic.
I like the direction of the newer CJ products. For me the tighter bass and increased dynamics is what I am looking for. The imaging and the mid range in my opinion has not been compromised. The increased clarity and lower noise floor also makes it all the better in my set up.
I have been a CJ man since the !980s and it just keeps on getting better!
Enjoy
Re: New ART 150
Hi 2bdude,
I have heard the 40.2s They are excellent and I did hear them in a near field set up as well. Fabulous tone and imaging. It is very interesting how every CJ owner is using different speakers. Seems like the CJ electronics are a universal fit with no compatibility problems.
I am looking for tighter bass as well. Thanks for reporting that this is one of the benefits of the ART 150.
I have heard the 40.2s They are excellent and I did hear them in a near field set up as well. Fabulous tone and imaging. It is very interesting how every CJ owner is using different speakers. Seems like the CJ electronics are a universal fit with no compatibility problems.
I am looking for tighter bass as well. Thanks for reporting that this is one of the benefits of the ART 150.
Re: New ART 150
Hi Bear,
The ART300/Gat series 2 is simply exquisite on the Wilson Alexias'. FWIW.
Enjoy,
Woofer
The ART300/Gat series 2 is simply exquisite on the Wilson Alexias'. FWIW.
Enjoy,
Woofer
-
Big Dog RJ
- Ultimate
- Posts: 2361
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: New ART 150
I'm heading off tomorrow arvo for a private listen to the chap who happens to have Klipsch Lascala's stacked, including a third stack of separate bass horns in the middle. This thing looks like the Twin Towers! Amplification is all McIntosh, three power amps with around 300-452w/ch, I'm guessing this rig could launch the next mission to the moon!
He has sold off his Harbeth 40.2's and placed an order for the MG30.7's. This will be the only pair sold in Aus so far, retails for 53grand for the 30.7's.
I actually owe this guy one and a major one for that. When he came over few weeks ago to listen to the CLX's, although he enjoyed the sound, he was not impressed. I asked how so? Mentioned that there was a sort of "veil affect" taking place but could certainly feel the potential of the CLX's waiting to be unleashed...
After another week, he said he's figured out the culprit! It's the Thor PS10 power conditioner that's choking the system's SOTA sound. Especially with the high standards of CJ's transformers, regulated power supplies and isolated circuits from the AC mains transformer, there's actually no need for added power conditioning.
So, as suggested I disconnected the Thor and reconfigured all connections into the Nordost Qbase 8. Plugged the preamp directly into the QX4, and the qx4 into the Qbase 8. Now the Qbase 8 power board runs directly into the AC mains outlet. Powered up the system and said a prayer... Oh my goodness gracious!
What a massive difference! It's so profound it's not even funny. The dynamics are not only truly effortless but also limitless! Superb, superb, superb!
And so with that, I just wanted to share with all, before you make any further upgrades. Make sure your existing system is well grounded and connected directly to the AC mains. All you require is a dedicated 10Amp or 15amp line with a separate CB switch on the main board, dedicated for the audio system, nothing else! Throw out your power conditioners they really choke the system's potential, and especially the superb quality of CJ amplification.
If not for this chap, I would have never experienced this level of brilliance! Absolutely amazing.
Cheers to all and enjoy your music, big woof RJ
He has sold off his Harbeth 40.2's and placed an order for the MG30.7's. This will be the only pair sold in Aus so far, retails for 53grand for the 30.7's.
I actually owe this guy one and a major one for that. When he came over few weeks ago to listen to the CLX's, although he enjoyed the sound, he was not impressed. I asked how so? Mentioned that there was a sort of "veil affect" taking place but could certainly feel the potential of the CLX's waiting to be unleashed...
After another week, he said he's figured out the culprit! It's the Thor PS10 power conditioner that's choking the system's SOTA sound. Especially with the high standards of CJ's transformers, regulated power supplies and isolated circuits from the AC mains transformer, there's actually no need for added power conditioning.
So, as suggested I disconnected the Thor and reconfigured all connections into the Nordost Qbase 8. Plugged the preamp directly into the QX4, and the qx4 into the Qbase 8. Now the Qbase 8 power board runs directly into the AC mains outlet. Powered up the system and said a prayer... Oh my goodness gracious!
What a massive difference! It's so profound it's not even funny. The dynamics are not only truly effortless but also limitless! Superb, superb, superb!
And so with that, I just wanted to share with all, before you make any further upgrades. Make sure your existing system is well grounded and connected directly to the AC mains. All you require is a dedicated 10Amp or 15amp line with a separate CB switch on the main board, dedicated for the audio system, nothing else! Throw out your power conditioners they really choke the system's potential, and especially the superb quality of CJ amplification.
If not for this chap, I would have never experienced this level of brilliance! Absolutely amazing.
Cheers to all and enjoy your music, big woof RJ
-
Bill Stevenson
- Pro
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:36 pm
Re: New ART 150
RJ,
An interesting post. I am not familiar with the Thor part, but the PS10 is very familiar to me. I recently upgraded from a PS10 to a PS20, but and this is the kicker, the Thor part. Are they the same? Too the PS10 or PS20 that I am familiar with is not a power conditioner, it is a regulated power supply. Really what it is is an amplifier that breaks down the power coming from your wall socket and then builds it back up into a very clean, low impedance, low distortion 60 cycle sine wave. There is nothing about it that would choke anything. The question is, when is it needed? The answer is in localities where the electrical supply fluctuates a lot, or has too much distortion or noise. Where I live in South Florida, most of the houses have air conditioning that runs more or less year round. It the summer months with the power demand high and AC units coming on and off line to meet cooling demand relatively frequently, we have a potential for significant voltage swings during the course of each day. This situation does not make for happy times for cj amplifiers particularly in urban areas. Not so bad out in rural areas. Anyway, the PS20 is a significant improvement over the PS10, but either makes my ARTsa much more stable as manifested by bias LEDs staying off once properly set, from day to day, week to week, month to month. Just like they're supposed to. And the system sounds better too. Without the PS10 or PS20 my bias lEDs could come on and go off several times a week or even morning to night, unless I backed the bias way down, which of course is less than optimal. Again and for emphasis, the need for a separate power supply is dependent on the quality of the power coming into your home. Not everybody would benefit from one. But I don't know about Thor. Does Thor diddle the things for use Down Under? Or are we talking about two different things?
Regards,
Bill
An interesting post. I am not familiar with the Thor part, but the PS10 is very familiar to me. I recently upgraded from a PS10 to a PS20, but and this is the kicker, the Thor part. Are they the same? Too the PS10 or PS20 that I am familiar with is not a power conditioner, it is a regulated power supply. Really what it is is an amplifier that breaks down the power coming from your wall socket and then builds it back up into a very clean, low impedance, low distortion 60 cycle sine wave. There is nothing about it that would choke anything. The question is, when is it needed? The answer is in localities where the electrical supply fluctuates a lot, or has too much distortion or noise. Where I live in South Florida, most of the houses have air conditioning that runs more or less year round. It the summer months with the power demand high and AC units coming on and off line to meet cooling demand relatively frequently, we have a potential for significant voltage swings during the course of each day. This situation does not make for happy times for cj amplifiers particularly in urban areas. Not so bad out in rural areas. Anyway, the PS20 is a significant improvement over the PS10, but either makes my ARTsa much more stable as manifested by bias LEDs staying off once properly set, from day to day, week to week, month to month. Just like they're supposed to. And the system sounds better too. Without the PS10 or PS20 my bias lEDs could come on and go off several times a week or even morning to night, unless I backed the bias way down, which of course is less than optimal. Again and for emphasis, the need for a separate power supply is dependent on the quality of the power coming into your home. Not everybody would benefit from one. But I don't know about Thor. Does Thor diddle the things for use Down Under? Or are we talking about two different things?
Regards,
Bill
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Big Dog RJ
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Re: New ART 150
Yes mate, that's the one! Thor PS10 and a more powerful unit PS20. Don't use them! They're rubbish!
They're not meant for SOTA systems such as CJ and other top end gear. For entry level HT it's OK but definitely not CJ.
Its too bad to learn that in your area the voltage is not stable. Over here down unda, we have very strict rules, where the power from the grid must be stable within 6% of required voltage and 1% tolerance of required amperage, otherwise we can take them to court!
If there's an issue, we just call up city power and they arrive straight away to fix the problem. Now they've installed digital smart meters across all residential areas, so with these new smart meters in place, they can now remotely monitor your voltage when a complaint is made. They monitor for 48hrs and then fix immediately as they find apparent problems... So now we get a constant 244v sometimes dips to 240v, that's good stuff.
With noise, RFI, EMI etc. All of CJ's amplifiers and many others take care of this internally. With the use of regulated power supplies, discrete voltage regulators and individual transformers dedicated for each task, there's no need for further power conditioning.
The Thor ps10 & ps20 do not use high quality parts anywhere close to what CJ does or any other highend brand for that matter. All you need is a dedicated 10, 13 or 15amp line directly to the mains board with a separate CB switch, that's all your hi-fi requires!
If you are having bad voltage swing, then I'm affraid you have a problem, this needs to be looked at by the power grid supplier. I'd be calling them and speaking to someone to explain what's going on...
As far as the bias is concerned, that's another issue. The bias should be set just as the LEDs go off and then a very very small micro turn back, to help stabilize. Then if there's a slight swing in voltage, this small micro turn back helps maintain the bias current and should not be a recurring problem. If the LEDs are constantly going off like Christmas lights, then perhaps you may need to change output tubes to fresh ones, or the power grid chaps need to attend to this pronto!
You cannot believe the level of performance and Dynamics you're missing by using that power conditioner. It's a very popular unit used by many dealers, and they all talk about the pure sinewave thing... Yeah whatever, definitely inferior for what we own.
Perhaps Bose and Kenwood systems OK but definitely not CJ mate. You don't know what your missing until you throw that thing out. Try it without it and you'll be stunned! You will also begin to understand the true quality of CJ's finest gear.
Cheers and all the best, hope something works out on that grid. RJ
They're not meant for SOTA systems such as CJ and other top end gear. For entry level HT it's OK but definitely not CJ.
Its too bad to learn that in your area the voltage is not stable. Over here down unda, we have very strict rules, where the power from the grid must be stable within 6% of required voltage and 1% tolerance of required amperage, otherwise we can take them to court!
If there's an issue, we just call up city power and they arrive straight away to fix the problem. Now they've installed digital smart meters across all residential areas, so with these new smart meters in place, they can now remotely monitor your voltage when a complaint is made. They monitor for 48hrs and then fix immediately as they find apparent problems... So now we get a constant 244v sometimes dips to 240v, that's good stuff.
With noise, RFI, EMI etc. All of CJ's amplifiers and many others take care of this internally. With the use of regulated power supplies, discrete voltage regulators and individual transformers dedicated for each task, there's no need for further power conditioning.
The Thor ps10 & ps20 do not use high quality parts anywhere close to what CJ does or any other highend brand for that matter. All you need is a dedicated 10, 13 or 15amp line directly to the mains board with a separate CB switch, that's all your hi-fi requires!
If you are having bad voltage swing, then I'm affraid you have a problem, this needs to be looked at by the power grid supplier. I'd be calling them and speaking to someone to explain what's going on...
As far as the bias is concerned, that's another issue. The bias should be set just as the LEDs go off and then a very very small micro turn back, to help stabilize. Then if there's a slight swing in voltage, this small micro turn back helps maintain the bias current and should not be a recurring problem. If the LEDs are constantly going off like Christmas lights, then perhaps you may need to change output tubes to fresh ones, or the power grid chaps need to attend to this pronto!
You cannot believe the level of performance and Dynamics you're missing by using that power conditioner. It's a very popular unit used by many dealers, and they all talk about the pure sinewave thing... Yeah whatever, definitely inferior for what we own.
Perhaps Bose and Kenwood systems OK but definitely not CJ mate. You don't know what your missing until you throw that thing out. Try it without it and you'll be stunned! You will also begin to understand the true quality of CJ's finest gear.
Cheers and all the best, hope something works out on that grid. RJ
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Bill Stevenson
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Re: New ART 150
In last month's issue of Stereophile there is a good write up on the PS20, which I commend to your attention. I plug and unplug things from my PS20 all the time and in fact the ARTsa and GAT are plugged into the wall directly just now, because I was experimenting over the weekend. My ears tell me the P20 hurts nothing and helps a great deal at times. It is the cool season here and the power grid is fairly stable. Somehow you seem confused about what these things do and don't do. I just took a look at mine to write this note. At the moment voltage at the wall is 121.7 and distortion is 4.4%, which is not bad. Output from the regenerator is 120.0 and distortion is 0.1%. Output impedance is 0.1 ohms. The P20 simply provides AC and as long as it is used within it's limits it cannot affect any electronics detrimentally. I should hear no difference whatsoever between my amp plugged into the wall or plugged into P20 today. But here is the kicker, there are days when my line voltage can be as low as 107 or so, and distortion can be 8-9%. To keep the bias LEDs from constantly lighting before changing to a regulated power supply I had to back well down from the point where they first went out. Not anymore. Now my PS20 provides stable AC power year round and the bias is properly set and stable month in and month out. It is not, however, a power conditioner. it is a power generator. Very different animal.
Now with all that said your description of your power situation is entirely different from mine and it seems quite clear that you would not benefit from a PS20. But it shouldn't hurt anything either. Perhaps it was over taxed? Or there is a problem with it.
Regards,
Bill
Now with all that said your description of your power situation is entirely different from mine and it seems quite clear that you would not benefit from a PS20. But it shouldn't hurt anything either. Perhaps it was over taxed? Or there is a problem with it.
Regards,
Bill
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Big Dog RJ
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Re: New ART 150
I'm sending you a photo of mine, I think the two are different. The PS 20 you're using is probably the one made by PS Audio Paul McGowan, that's an outstanding device.
The one I was using is a Thor PS10, power conditioner, voltage stabilizer. I'll send you a photo...
RJ
The one I was using is a Thor PS10, power conditioner, voltage stabilizer. I'll send you a photo...
RJ
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Big Dog RJ
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- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:30 am
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Re: New ART 150
Here's a photo of the Thor PS10, the PS stands for Smart power station. And they have a larger capacity called the PS20, which is basically a 20amp unit.
Anyway, I'm not using it any more for sure.
RJ
Anyway, I'm not using it any more for sure.
RJ
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Bill Stevenson
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Re: New ART 150
RJ,
Yes your's is a completely different looking unit. And yes mine is the PS Audio of Paul McGowan and it is a quite outstanding device. But you still don't need one based on the superior electrical service you describe. At least I admitted up front I didn't know about Thor. Judging from what you have described it seems that the Thor thingy is sending garbage to your amp. Garbage in, garbage out seems to apply.
Bill
Yes your's is a completely different looking unit. And yes mine is the PS Audio of Paul McGowan and it is a quite outstanding device. But you still don't need one based on the superior electrical service you describe. At least I admitted up front I didn't know about Thor. Judging from what you have described it seems that the Thor thingy is sending garbage to your amp. Garbage in, garbage out seems to apply.
Bill