MV60se upgrade

[Rubicon15]

I’ve owned my MV60se for over 15 years now. I purchased it used from a dealer that was closing his shop. It was and still is in mint condition. It’s hard to believe that the amp is that old. It still has that infamous CJ sound quality. I was on the lookout and found a mint condition ET3se that I purchased several years ago. It’s been an incredible addition to my system.

Now for the question. Obviously, my 60se is getting old and I would like to keep this vintage amp in good repair and continue to use and enjoy it for years to come. Has anyone had their MV60 or 60se upgrade by CJ? If so, were you happy with the upgrade? I don’t want to ruin that classic sound that is so hard to come by these days. Are Teflon caps the way to go? I know Vishay resistors are also recommended. Is it best to just let CJ do their thing and update the unit as they see fit? In my mind an upgrade is well worth 1K if I end up with an amp worth enjoying for another 10+ years. All candid feedback will be greatly appreciated.

[admin]

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. I think it comes down to what you are looking for from the upgrade.

The upgrade is going to install newer components so much less likely to fail in the near future. I'm sure they will also do a thorough check of the unit in general so that is an "added benefit" in sending in the unit. You will most likely hear a sonic improvement with the upgrades as well. Both from higher quality components as well as the fact that some of those components are pushing 2 decades. Caps and resistors can wear with time and degrade slowly before complete failure.

The argument for not doing the upgrade is "why fix what's not broken?" If you really enjoy the sound why make a change? The cost of the upgrade will increase the unit's resale value, but certainly less than the cost of the actual upgrade so there is a net loss in money.

If you really love this unit so much that you have spent 15 years with it and would like to spend another 15, I think the cost for the upgrade is very minimal in the bigger scheme of things. But that's just me.

[Rubicon15]

Admin, thanks for the feedback. Like you, I’m more inclined to believe that I will experience sonic benefits of the upgrade. I’ve read about the downside of burning in teflon caps. However, if the total cost is far less than purchasing a new or used amp, this may be the best option. I enjoy the MV60se and of course its unique design. It’s the only CJ amp with a winged faceplate. I get it, some people aren’t fond of the wing but it is a classic.

I don’t need more power and I’m not at all interested in a SS unit. Lately, I’ve been focusing on upgrading all my interconnects - Nordost Heimdall 2. I recently purchased a pair of open box B&W 805 D3 speakers. I’ve been thinking about the 805’s for a while. When I found a pair that were literally never used, I couldn’t pass up the opportunity. I preferred the older 805 design with a wooden top.

I’ve debated about purchasing a CJ Classic series amp but I honestly don’t know if the additional cost will deliver equally improved sound quality. I don’t have enough disposable income to drop 8-10K+ on a new amp. Any recommendations? Upgrade the MV60se or sell and purchase a used classic?

My current system includes a CJ MV60se, ET3se, DV-2b, Lampizator Amber 3, Lumin U2 mini, B&W 805 D3, and Nordost Heimdall 2 interconnects, speaker cables, and two power cables. I’m also using a Cardas Nautilus power distribution bar. Overall, a respectable system that sounds very nice.

[admin]

Well, I don't think upgrading the MV60se would cost the same as upgrading to a newer unit. Matter of fact it would be a lot cheaper. But this is why it's hard to answer your question of not changing anything/upgrading to the MV60se/upgrading to the classic. These are all different price points.

I think it really depends on how much resources (ie money) you would want to put toward this upgrade. You have a perfectly well function MV60 so it's not like you "have to" upgrade. If funds are really tight and you want to take the system to the next level, the se upgrade would be a very viable option. But let's not be around a bush. While an upgrade to the SE edition will be an incremental (although perhaps very significant) improvement, a new classic is a rather large step. You are not only getting a more modern design, you are buying into reliability for another decade and a half compared to your MV60. And if you were thinking of the Classic 120, then there is an even bigger step as your power output has doubled. Whether you need that power or not,.. is hard to say, but it wouldn't hurt. The downside is that you are now talking about an entirely difference monetary commitment (if you would sell the MV60 to offset the price).

Tough questions. No "right or wrong." What are you looking to accomplish and how much are you willing to pay for it?

[Rubicon15]

Just to clarify, I currently have the MV60se. No need to upgrade to a “se” version. I’m referring to the caps, resistors, etc. I’ll have to have a conversation with CJ regarding the differences between an upgraded MV60se and a Classic 60se or 62se. Obviously, if I purchase a used Classic 62se, I may also need to purchase a new pre amp for a better match. I know, I can’t compare the sonic characteristics.

[admin]

Oh, my mistake. I thought you have the MV60 and was considering going to the MV60se. If you are just talking about replacing the older parts with newer ones, I would probably not spend money on that unless you think there is specifically a component failure.

As for going for going to either a Classic 60se or 62se, if you could swing the 62se and get into the current line,.. that would be definitely my way to go if possible.

[Rubicon15]

No component failure yet. The unit is just aging. I haven’t opened the hood to examine the caps etc. It still sounds and functions flawlessly. The upgrade is more of a proactive move to extend the life of the amp and to upgrade caps and resistors. What I gather from your feedback, I would be better served by purchasing a new or used Classic 62se. I need to confirm the cost of a complete upgrade but I believe it is approximately 1K. I also need to research how users compare the MV60se (upgraded if possible) to the Classic 60se/62se.

[admin]

Perhaps others would disagree but I only consider replacing components if something is broken or I'm doing a clear upgrade. I don't think either of those are you situation. The only exception I have to this rule is having some spare fuses and tubes on hand. But that is because fuse/tube failure is an expected event on a fairly regular basis and I don't want to equipment down for days while waiting for replacements.

Upgrading to the current line Classic is an entirely different ball of wax. That would be a clear and significant upgrade. So if I had funds to spare, I would be looking at upgrades, not just replacing functioning components of the current unit.

[Rubicon15]

Admin, you made a few excellent points. I really need to take a peek under the hood and see if I have any bulging caps etc. I agree, even though I love the vintage MV60se, I may be better served by moving up to the 60se or 62se. If I were to purchase a 62se, do you believe my ET3se needs to be replaced as well? I noticed you have the ET7. By the way, Big dog, aka RJ has been extremely helpful in the past.

[admin]

"Need" is a strong word. The ET3se is a mighty fine preamp. Really high end. Now as an owner of an ET7s2 myself,... it's certainly going to be an upgrade if you go that route. But the ET7s2 is not a cheap product so there will be a monetary cost. I don't think you necessarily have to upgrade the preamp if you do go with a new classic. The synergy is going to be excellent.

This is of course a never ending rabbit hole as one can then say, why stop at the ET7s2 and go with the new ART preamp,... etc. I think it really comes down to what are you looking for in terms of upgrades and how much are you will to pay for it. The sky is the limit in this hobby.

If I were you, I would seriously consider an upgrade to the Classic 62 if funds allow. Probably next would be to just say, "you know what, the MV60se sounds great and is working perfectly, let's just cool down and revisit the upgrade topic in a few years." If you got money to burn, then of course all upgrades are on the table.

[Rubicon15]

Quick search on a Classic 62se - Demo unit with low hours $5600 and new $6250. Do you have any knowledge regarding pricing? What is a good price for a new unit or demo/open box? I'm not opposed to a used amp in exceptional condition. I will keep my eyes open for an opportunity worth consideration. I just purchased Heimdall 2 interconnects and speaker cables for 60 percent of MSRP. I verified their authenticity with Nordost. They were basically brand new at 35-40 percent off. I depleted my mad money reserve on cables. I’m done going down that rabbit hole for a long time.

[admin]

No special knowledge. This is what CJ's website says:

Classic 62 $5,750
Classic 62SE $7,500
Classic 120 $11,000
Classic 120SE $13,500

I don't know if there is a good price for "used". I think that is a loaded question. If it comes from a dealer it will cost more because you get their support. If you take it home and something explodes in a week, the dealer should make it right. You try buying it on ebay for a better price and you may get a bowling ball in the mail and spend weeks on fighting with paypal to try and get a refund. Which may never happen. Not all sellers are equal. I've bought from dealers, local sales, ebay/audiogon, and even done deals where I asked them to send me the units prior to me paying. Different circumstances, pros and risks associated with all.

[Rubicon15]

I avoid eBay for all audio gear. I agree, not all sellers are equal. Agon and USaudiomart are usually my two, go two online sources for used equipment. TMR is an equally good source but their prices can be high. However, you do get some additional coverage. If the unit doesn’t work, they will accept a return. I always use PayPal for the added protection. I read the MSRP pricing on CJ’s website. I don’t know what percentage off MSRP can be expected. Unfortunately, we don’t have a dealer in Texas. On the positive side, Florida usually doesn’t charge sales tax if shipped out of state.

[admin]

The platform unfortunately doesn't guarantee a flawless transaction. I would trust an ebay account that has been active for 15 years and has 500 positive reviews over a new audiogon account that was opened last month. Paypal does offer some protection, but it can still be a fight and nothing is guaranteed. As with my bowling ball example, you complain to paypal that you were sent a bowling ball, the seller says he sent you a Classic 62se and gives a tracking number and weight of package that matches the classic. Paypal may not be willing to give back thousands of dollars so easily. And at the end of the day there is nothing you can do to definitively prove your case.

Buyer beware as the saying goes. I expect to pay a premium at the local dealer because if there is any problem, I know who's face I'm going to be taking to. So I would not rule out a dealer sale just because the price is higher than some anonymous seller on audiogon. But sometimes you can find an incredible deal online and if you do your due diligence, it can be done with low risk.

[Rubicon15]

I agree. Any long term user with a documented history may reduce risks. Buyers definitely need to perform their due diligence. A good dealer is probably the safest option if you are buying new or used. TMR is a good example. I sincerely appreciate the advice.

[SolderSlinger]

One aspect to consider is the different small signal tubes used in each amplifier. The MV60 uses 12AX7 and 6SN7 while the Classic 62 uses 3X 6922. Just that difference will provide a major change in sound. Without trying to open a major debate about to Teflon or not to Teflon, the Teflon upgrade will improve the sound of both amps, without changing their unique sonic signature.

Personally, I really like the Classic 60SE. It uses a 6189 (12AU7) input tube followed by 6922s. The M8080 (single triode 12AU7) is used for the input tube in the ART mono, and the 6189 is used in the ARTsa. Both are highly rated amplifiers.