Burmester 911 mk3 and CJ inverting Preamps

[AnotherJohnson]

ARC and Burmester both include an “invert” function on the remote. Invert flips the phase of the sound wave by 180 degrees. In one orientation the negative pressure wave arrives at your ear first, and in the other case it is the positive pressure wave.

Since the audible waves come at frequencies of 20 Hz to 20000 Hz, you would think the difference would be inaudible. Hz is cycles per second, so the time from positive to negative and back again is very small.

The invert button is to get the wave into the proper orientation. In CJ’s case, the preamps typical add an inversion, so you fix it by swapping speaker wires. But does this really fix it?

It turns out that other inversions can be present in sources, and even in the mastering, recording, and production.

Audio Research and Burmester suggest trying both inverted and not inverted to see which sounds better for any individual recording.

I’ve been doing this lately. Listen, flip phase on the fly, listen …. What I’ve found is that it really can be recording dependent. Some sound best inverted. Some sound best without inversion. The difference in sound is like a subtle “opening of greater presence and air.” I was surprised at this. I have read about phase issues with recordings that needed inversion to be corrected, but it seemed like it would be unusual. Checking it on the fly is showing that, however subtle, the effect is real.

[Joe Appierto]

The DirectStream DAC has an inversion In/Out button on their remote marked "Phase". Quite honestly most times I can't tell a lick of difference but when I do, as you said, one presentation sounds a tiny bit more open/airy. My ears are old and the system is okay but far, far from SOTA but even back 8 years ago when I got the DAC I had to really concentrate and even then it was an iffy thing.

[AnotherJohnson]

The DirectStream DAC has an inversion In/Out button on their remote marked "Phase". Quite honestly most times I can't tell a lick of difference but when I do, as you said, one presentation sounds a tiny bit more open/airy. My ears are old and the system is okay but far, far from SOTA but even back 8 years ago when I got the DAC I had to really concentrate and even then it was an iffy thing.

Maybe it is a common feature on DACs. The dCS has the invert button too.

I agree that it’s nearly always a subtle effect, though I recall a time or two when setting up my CJ systems that I could recognize when I’d forgotten to do the swap at the speakers fairly clearly on familiar program material.

It is nice to have options.

[admin]

An invert switch is certainly a nice luxury as it doesn't require you to change cables. Also, some recordings are recorded inverted.

I don't think we will every have this on CJ gear. It's an additional circuit and that's not the CJ way.

[AnotherJohnson]

If CJ with no switch sounded better than gear from ARC or Burmester, or dCS with the switch, I’d be supportive of the “no switch” experience.

In my system, it’s simply not the case.

Granted, the inversion is subtle … but it is audible on many albums. It’s a small bit in the quest to achieve the best possible sound. But every bit is important if you’re trying to advance. I find myself checking the inverted signal on every program I cue up.

[Big Dog RJ]

Mmm... I thought as much that may well be the case. If you're playing or adjusting those types of switches / settings each time you play music... to me that's not really enjoying the music. Rather, it's adjusting the system to enjoy the system...

I'm just saying; I used to do that with all the gadgets I had back in the day, especially that damn servo control unit from Infinity's IRS systems. Then on subs, preamp controls and it seemed never ending. Fast fwd 20 yrs... now I just can't be bothered! I'd rather hook up best way possible as recommended, set and forget then just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes!

Why keep flipping switches? No matter how many switches you filp, or config in the best way possible, there'll always be room for improvements. On the recordings, on cables / accessories, on gear, program settings it never ends! Nonetheless, if you must have a "perfect" playback level of every type or format of recording and it can be done, so be it!
To me from what I've experienced in my last tour of the ultra-high-end, there's no such thing as perfect. It doesn't exist, it's only a mindset.

With what you've achieved and the gear you've got so far that is... I would simply enjoy every moment of it! We're not getting any younger mate. And that's one outstanding system there!

Cheers, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

It takes a millisecond to flip a switch and decide if the music is better with one more inversion.

You make it sound like someone sits and flips and can’t decide and spends the whole performance in uncertainty while flipping and flipping. No, what you describe is off the mark at best. It’s very clear on the one flip whether or not the program is better with invert or without. Same for dCS, Burmester, and ARC. They all include this feature. It’s not smoke and mirrors. Once the system is capable of resolving Micro differences, the switch is useful. I’d say 20% of files or records are better in the unpredicted setting. So if you can’t check with a switch, it’s probably not worth flipping speaker wires. It wouldn’t be worth it to me anyway.

Up until the 088, it wasn’t near as clear.

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah, I see.
Ok in that case I guess it makes sense. I suppose having that particular feature would also prove useful for those recordings that are out of phase. Then again not everyone can easily ascertain what is in phase and out of phase.

Only when this is engaged, and the differences are apparent then it's a good thing. I remember CJ's DV2B had a phase button on the front panel. I used it a few times in our personal system and in demos. Most of those attending demos didn't notice any major changes. Only when individually asked to listen and concentrate closely then they realised subtle changes. It's not a perfect solution but does have its merits.

Cheers mate, those fine tunes are getting finer!
RJ

[audiobill]

I find that moving my head 1/8" from side to side or fore/aft accomplishes much the same.....

[AnotherJohnson]

Ah, I see.
Ok in that case I guess it makes sense. I suppose having that particular feature would also prove useful for those recordings that are out of phase. Then again not everyone can easily ascertain what is in phase and out of phase.

Only when this is engaged, and the differences are apparent then it's a good thing. I remember CJ's DV2B had a phase button on the front panel. I used it a few times in our personal system and in demos. Most of those attending demos didn't notice any major changes. Only when individually asked to listen and concentrate closely then they realised subtle changes. It's not a perfect solution but does have its merits.

Cheers mate, those fine tunes are getting finer!
RJ

My whole point is that it is CLEAR now.

You are capable of hearing differences … I am capable of hearing differences.

In my system in its present state, phase is clear. If it’s not in your system, then either you’re lucky because out of phase is just as good as in phase, or you’re unlucky because your system is not capable of showing off the differences.

The CJ stuff may “sound right” and maybe the latest ART offerings are best of all … who knows … demos are scarcer than $3 bills. But CJ makes a big deal about inversions, and yet even accomplished demonstrators like yourself struggle to hear the issue with their gear.

[admin]

Makes me wonder how much I'm losing out by having a fixed phase system. I don't know? CJ's view is obviously that simplicity is the best course of action. How much does the sound degrade by having a phase altering circuit in the path? Don't know? Maybe some, maybe nothing. I suppose it does add additional cost and another potential failure component.

I can see the utility of having a switch. I will say that most people and store demos have not made a big deal about phase adjusting for every album/track that is played. Is this a missed opportunity if the audiophile world as most components don't have a phase adjust option? Perhaps.

BTW- there was a nice full page ad in the latest Stereophile issue for Burmester. They sure look nice and perhaps they are making a push to expand sales.

[AnotherJohnson]

Makes me wonder how much I'm losing out by having a fixed phase system. I don't know? CJ's view is obviously that simplicity is the best course of action. How much does the sound degrade by having a phase altering circuit in the path? Don't know? Maybe some, maybe nothing. I suppose it does add additional cost and another potential failure component.

I can see the utility of having a switch. I will say that most people and store demos have not made a big deal about phase adjusting for every album/track that is played. Is this a missed opportunity if the audiophile world as most components don't have a phase adjust option? Perhaps.

BTW- there was a nice full page ad in the latest Audiophile issue for Burmester. They sure look nice and perhaps they are making a push to expand sales.

I can answer that you are missing very little 99% of the time. But how much or little it matters depends on your system’s resolution, and how much you personally care. Invert or not invert … is not a life changing question.

I would say that our local McIntosh dealer would not be able to show it off in a demo because so many other things are just plain wrong in their demos.

[Joe Appierto]

I was just thumbing through the 50th anniversary TAS issue and saw an advertisement for a phono preamp from Japanese manufacturer Zanden that mentions phase inversion. A visit to their website reveals that all five of their line stage and phono stage preamplifiers include phase inversion switches.

http://www.zandenaudio.com/product/m3000.php

[AnotherJohnson]

I was just thumbing through the 50th anniversary TAS issue and saw an advertisement for a phono preamp from Japanese manufacturer Zanden that mentions phase inversion. A visit to their website reveals that all five of their line stage and phono stage preamplifiers include phase inversion switches.

http://www.zandenaudio.com/product/m3000.php

It looks like it is more common than I had thought.

I was introduced to the idea by the manual that came with my PV 5.

As all good readers and instruction followers would do, I dutifully considered the inversion whenever I set up my CJ system. I seem to remember at least one CJ preamp I owned that did not invert all sources. ???

It is a lot cheaper to tell you to swap speaker wires than to include a sonically excellent invert circuit.

It is not a HUGE deal. I think CJ tells you about it in the manuals because CJ knows that you’re going to ask about it. Including it in the manual cuts down phone calls.

The focus on simplicity for simplicity’s sake harkens back to the original tube driven audio amplifiers of Saul Marantz, just as do the gold faceplates.

McIntosh went into the as not yet invented audiophile business after Frank and Gordon realized that by making something more complex (inventing and incorporating the autoformer) they could actually improve things. Of course there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. But compared to the amps of the WWII and Korean War period, the McIntosh audio amplifiers were rightfully the real gold standard.

In any event, if having the switch does not really degrade the sound, and in my system it does not, then it’s a nice feature that gives that little extra “pop” to snap things into focus. The switch gives instant comparison capability.

Obviously CJ believes the phenomenon is real or they would not have devoted a paragraph to it in manuals dating back 40 years. CJ just puts the onus on you to turn checking into a kabuki dance. Or to set it and forget it. If I still had CJ gear, I would do the latter. The extra “pop” is not worth the effort of shutting down, swapping wires, and restarting.

[Joe Appierto]

I seem to remember at least one CJ preamp I owned that did not invert all sources. ???

I'm not sure about other models but I do know the PV10A did not invert phase for the phono at the Tape Out ("Phase: phono stage is phase correct at tape out") but all sources including the phono were inverted at the Main Out.

[admin]

It is not a HUGE deal. I think CJ tells you about it in the manuals because CJ knows that you’re going to ask about it. Including it in the manual cuts down phone calls.

It's the same exact text verbatim in the manuals for the past 30+ years. Somebody wrote those few paragraphs in the 80's and it has been "copied and pasted" in every manual since. I guess "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but it may also reflect the importance the text when it has not been touched in decades.

[AnotherJohnson]

It is not a HUGE deal. I think CJ tells you about it in the manuals because CJ knows that you’re going to ask about it. Including it in the manual cuts down phone calls.

It's the same exact text verbatim in the manuals for the past 30+ years. Somebody wrote those few paragraphs in the 80's and it has been "copied and pasted" in every manual since. I guess "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," but it may also reflect the importance the text when it has not been touched in decades.

Bill or Lew put it in. So at least one, and probably both, recognized it.

You can critique the whole manual by this criterion. It’s all virtually identical from decade to decade.

No one else puts this level of lack of effort into their manuals. The inversion boiler plate is joined by several other bits of old chestnut.

How about the section on the importance of wires?

Or We know of no other tubes that are better?

The defense that it’s not been updated in 40 years should not give anyone a warm or fuzzy feeling.

I really think the manual is rooted in the question “What should we include to reduce those pesky phone calls.”

[AnotherJohnson]

I was wrong about my PV5. It is printed in the manual that both line and phono stages are non inverting.

It was my PV8 that first introduced me to the joy of obfuscation.

The manual for the PV8 says that the line stage is inverting. I guess the phono stage was not.

I do remember the dilemma of wondering whether to invert at the speakers or not. If you were still committed to high end vinyl playback as best, as I was, it made sense to not invert at the speakers. If you’d transitioned to high level CD playback, maybe you should. Cassettes were not really high end, even on my Nakamichi deck. So it didn’t matter.

[AnotherJohnson]

Some may recall this article from 2009.

https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/a ... 0zRO4WO.97

It provides background on why something is important to one person but not another person. The idea here, plus the Fletcher and Munson human hearing experiments, explain a lot about why there is such a wide range of opinion about what’s actually good.