DAC controller app comparison - Split from "Wilson to reveal new Sasha V on June 23rd." topic

[AnotherJohnson]

Following up on Joe’s post, I found Patricia Barber’s Companion album and I’ve now listened several times to the “If this isn’t jazz” cut using three different paths. The album is a 44.1/16 FLAC file.

Streamed from Amazon using HEOS on the ND8006, to the SA-KI Ruby DAC, to the Sennheiser HDV820 amp and the HD800S headphones, I can hear it, but not with a super level of clarity.

Streamed from Amazon on the Bluesound Node using BluOS, to the McIntosh MDA200, to the REF6SE, REF250SEs, and the Sasha DAWs, it is clearer. Better tinkle of the fall, or at least jostling as glasses are grabbed.

Streamed from Qobuz on the Rossini, using the Roon Nucleus, and on to the REF6SE, REF250SEs, and Sasha DAWs, it is clearer still. It matches well with other glass events that characterize a live club show.

There are other “glass being tinkled” events on other cuts, like “Like JT.” So that sets you up to recognize it at 2:18 on the subject cut. Glasses also appear at the end of some cuts, including the subject cut, as wait staff clear customers of empties to make sure they know they’re ready for another round.

There are some serious boomy bass events that sound like maybe the bass player whacking the box on “Let it rain”. The band isn’t credited, so no telling who it is. It could be an artifact of a bridge mike on the bass. It could be intentional because the album has many avant-garde musical elements.

FWIW, I think this type of detail could be obfuscated by any weakness in the path. Interconnects, speaker cables, power cords, or switches included.

I thought it would be clearer than it was on my headphone stack. Usually that provides a very fine sense of detail.

If you had not drawn my attention to this event, I might have missed it. It is very brief, and not part of the musical content.

Lee Scoggins reviews some content on the TAS YouTube channel. He recently posted a review. His reference speakers are Alexia Vs.

He gave a favorable review of the new speakers, but he commented “If you’re looking for the kind of detail where you can hear a fly on the wall farting during the recording session, you might be dissatisfied.” I suspect he can hear such things with his Rossini Apex, ARC REF6SE, etc in his reference system.

If there is something on the recording and it is not presented by your system, that is the practical proof of distortion. You might not need to hear everything to enjoy the music, but how can you know what else you’re missing?

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve just cut Roon out of the stream and used this path instead …

Qobuz using Mosaic to control the Rossini. Then REF6SE, REF250SEs, Sasha DAWs.

This is the clearest of all. The glass tinkle jumps right up as described by Joe’s PS Audio poster.

So … we know that the Rossini ARC DAWs can put it out there if the stream can get it right.

Emron, the dCS rep, told me that many think Mosaic is clearer than Roon. This is the first event where I’ve had such fine detail to test his assertion. Sounds like he may be right, at least on this day in my system. Really, as I play the whole album one more time, the whole performance is even more engaging via Mosaic. Who knew?

[admin]

I’ve just cut Roon out of the stream and used this path instead …

Qobuz using Mosaic to control the Rossini. Then REF6SE, REF250SEs, Sasha DAWs.

This is the clearest of all. The glass tinkle jumps right up as described by Joe’s PS Audio poster.

So … we know that the Rossini ARC DAWs can put it out there if the stream can get it right.

Emron, the dCS rep, told me that many think Mosaic is clearer than Roon. This is the first event where I’ve had such fine detail to test his assertion. Sounds like he may be right, at least on this day in my system. Really, as I play the whole album one more time, the whole performance is even more engaging via Mosaic. Who knew?

This is interesting. Any reason given why Qobuz would be clearer on Mosaic vs Roon when they are using the same API to get audio stream?

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve seen arguments and debates. The measurers and spec guys know it’s not true. The listeners hear differences.

I just lost a follow up post, so I’ll summarize it.

I’m listening to the whole album again. The Mosaic controlled stream is not subtly better. It is obviously better across the spectrum. Those mysterious boomy bass notes have ALL cleared up. Every note is readily attributable to a clear instrument. This is spooky.

Emron said that I should be able to hear the difference. I’ve been so happy with Roon, that once Mosaic was finally actually functional, I just confirmed it and went back to Roon.

Now I’m going to have to do a serious evaluation. As I said, the difference today is nontrivial.

The problem with streaming is that there is no control of what you’re served. I have no idea what’s going on. But I can hear it, and this is another “Wow!!” kind of moment.

I just streamed past Joe’s glass event as I was writing, and it stood out clear as a bell even though I’m concentrating on something else.

[AnotherJohnson]

This is the sort of experience that makes you question what you can possibly know from a stream sourced demonstration. Who knows what the differences that you hear should be attributed to? If I had just paid $10k to do the Apex mod and bought the $10k clock, I’d think those changes were at the root, and worth the money. Instead I paid NOTHING and changed no gear, and am dumbfounded by what I’m hearing.

This system was already performing as well as half million dollar demo systems I’ve auditioned. This is definitely the best I’ve ever heard … at least today. I hope it continues.

[admin]

At the end of the day it's your ears that tell the truth. Not only are you using some of the highest end gear, but you are able to get the best performance out of that gear.

[AnotherJohnson]

This is a HUGE reason that vinyl is held in such high regard by aficionados. It is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If you make a change, you can confidently attribute improvements or degradations to that change.

CDs and SACDs are stable entities too.

Digital files that you own and store locally may be as stable. I don’t have experience to know.

But there is no doubt that at least here in my location, streaming is variable. Much better than it once was. And the best is truly excellent. But the nominally identical files from Amazon or Qobuz often sound different in subtle ways, and sometimes sound different in less subtle ways.

And this controversial idea that a Qobuz file can sound different depending on whether you’re using Mosaic or Roon, or that it may sound different depending on where your Roon Core resides, is exasperating.

[AnotherJohnson]

I don’t regret the quest to achieve audiophile level streaming here. It took quite a long time to sort it out. There are so many good things about streaming that it is worth some aggravation. The audiophile market for streamed music is small compared to the total market. I can’t help but think that this works against us when it comes to the level of quality control the subscription services are willing to provide.

[AnotherJohnson]

It’s been about 5 hours since I was surprise by today’s difference between Mosaic and Roon.

At first I played reference tracks, then whole albums.

At least for today, the fickle finger of fate is favoring Mosaic for highest levels of detail, and for overall dynamics and spectral balance. But they’re both really good.

It is just further proof that there’s no end to the height of the bar. Just when you think you’re as close to live as you can get, there’s another advancement.

I dunno … at least today’s revelation didn’t add any extra cost. The best lessons might be free.

Roon is a lot more user friendly and organizationally featured interface than Mosaic.

I suppose it’s good to have choices.

Meanwhile, the DAWs seem to be capable of the resolution described in the V demo.

[Joe Appierto]

AJ, you've put a good deal of effort into identifying the different factors affecting what we hear (or don't). Thanks for relaying what you've found it's been really informative as far as I'm concerned.

[AnotherJohnson]

The lesson I’ve learned is that all streaming is not created equal.

It reminds me of CD at the beginning … “Perfect Sound Forever!”

I think the evaluators and developers of the rudimentary technology are spec oriented and have no clue about sound beyond “Alexa, play some Bach.”

I do think that a case can be made for staying on a pleasant plateau rather than chasing after the last bits. The musical pleasure is present in simplicity. The quest for details is driven by the fun of finding limits.

[AnotherJohnson]

After an hour warmup tonight I’ve revisited the Patricia Barber album, Companion.

My interest was in the Roon vs Mosaic control of the Rossini while streaming from Qobuz.

Although both are good, the Mosaic control does sound a bit more fully fleshed out again tonight.

The glass event on “If This Isn’t Jazz” is well defined on both, but with more detail when mosaic is the control.

A really good test of your system’s bass is the bass solo at the start of “Use Me.” Good on both, but more meat with Mosaic.

Those unusual bass events on “Let It Rain” are better filled out with Mosaic.

I’ve done my best to match levels.

I’ve got to admit that the next time I read a review where the source is exclusively streaming, I’m not going to take it very seriously. In fact reviewers who are exclusively using streaming to evaluate components should have their reviewing license revoked.

[AnotherJohnson]

This is interesting. Any reason given why Qobuz would be clearer on Mosaic vs Roon when they are using the same API to get audio stream?

I’m wondering if the explanation is that Mosaic by itself replaces the Ethernet, Nucleus, Ethernet, switch, Ethernet, Rossini with Ethernet, switch, Ethernet Rossini.

The RAAT within the Rossini, or at least the part of it that reacts with Roon, is inactive under instructions that come directly from Mosaic. The dCS Rossini is Roon Ready, but it is also directly designed with Mosaic as the controller.

Any thoughts? Maybe this thread could be broken at Joe’s first post about the Patricia Barber album since it’s not really related to the Sasha V.

[AnotherJohnson]

The August 2023 issue of Stereophile arrived in yesterday’s mail.

I like stories and anecdotes about sources, and on page 23 Herb Reichert’s “It’s All About The Source” seemed like a good place to start reading.

On page 24 HR says

“Besides top shelf sonics, another reason I use the Bartok as a reference source is Mosaic, its network control and streaming app. I have found that playback via Mosaic offers a greater sense of transparency and less dynamic constraint than when the music data source is my Roon Nucleus+. It’s easy to bypass Roon. I use Mosaic for careful critical listening and Roon for everything else.”

So HR is saying that he hears it too.

Why didn’t I hear it when I got the Rossini? Because Mosaic and Qobuz were not mutually compatible on my unit unless a 27 second gap at the start of every track wouldn’t bother you. I hated it. I got sucked into Roon World and love it. But now that Mosaic and Qobuz are playing nicely together, I’m hearing higher level SQ with Mosaic.

In any event, I’m still thinking it is the RAAT, which is what makes something Roon Ready, that may be the bottleneck.

No one seems to know. I may call Emron and ask if there’s an official explanation.

The phenomenon is real if your system can resolve differences at a high enough level. If it can’t, you’re in luck as all this control program angst won’t pose a dilemma.

[admin]

I can't explain the difference between the controller apps but the ears don't lie.

It's a bit of a shame that Roon is not the same quality. The user interface and all the metadata with the Roon platform is beyond what anybody else offers.

[AnotherJohnson]

It’s not that Roon isn’t good. It is quite good and HR’s decision to not abandon it except in the most critical of listening activities proves the point.

I’ve discovered there are Roon lifetime subscribers who HATE Roon “because it sucks.” As lifetime subscribers, they are bitter. There are guys who spend four or five figures on switches, $15k and higher on their Roon Core host.

I’m not sure that it’s a good thing to hear so much, especially when it doesn’t lead to joy.

[AnotherJohnson]

I went by the local Wilson/McIntosh dealer today.

My friend/salesman and I discussed some solid state amps, and I noticed an old, fairly beaten up, Krell FPB600 on the floor. It is going back to Krell to be resurrected one more time.

The owner is another (relatively recent hire) salesman who is an actual audiophile. He has Wilson Maxx, ARC 210 amps, dCS streamer/DAC, and can hold his own when it comes to true hobbyist love of historical and present era gear. He and I have never talked beyond pleasantries before, but we had a long conversation today.

He liked the idea of using Mosaic for critical listening. And he had suffered through the recent bad behavior of Mosaic and Qobuz too. He had not listened via Mosaic once he was committed to Roon, so this issue was not mine alone.

He holds the Krell FPB600 with some degree of reverence and awe. Ray Mutchler, the Krell technician that I like so well had once told me that the FPB series was even better than the KSA series that I loved so well myself.

[AnotherJohnson]

Curious about the impact of the amp on the Patricia Barber glass vent on “If this isn’t jazz,” I replaced the Ref 250SEs with the Ref 75SE.

After a good warm up, I streamed the Barber track using Mosaic. People, including the ARC official listener Warren Gehl, have said that the Ref 75SE is special.

They’re right. I haven’t had it in my system for the past 7 months. Bringing it back today, it sounded really smooth, with well defined timbre across the board, from Mingus to Eva Cassidy. Patricia Barber’s glass break sounded the best yet. The Ref 75SE seems to specialize in finesse. It is the single ARC amp I know that allows individual bias for every power tube. The CJ led design is a bit easier, but the Ref 75SE has the best bias adjustment in the ARC lot.

[admin]

Just goes to show you that it's not all about how many amps can be pumped into the speakers. Quality vs quantity is going to triumph. I've found this to be especially true in sensitive speakers where you really don't need triple digit watts.

[AnotherJohnson]

When I bought the REF75SE to pair up with the LS28, I was pretty impressed with it. To my ears, it was easily better than the LP275Ms, and when I got it an AQ Hurricane power cord and stuck it in the PS Audio P12 regenerator, it was obvious to me in the consolidation of two main systems into one, that the REF75SE was the keeper it was so clearly better in my application.

When I later bought the used REF250SE, the differences were less clear, although the 250 seemed to be faster and with more presence. The 250 was not yet fully broken in, and I expected it to continue to improve (and it did).

I’ve enjoyed it for 7 months and have not felt the need to recompare it to the 75. Reinserting the 75 after my ears were fully accustomed to the sound signature of the 250 has made it easier to notice and value the differences. I am really enjoying the 75. My sources, speakers, and interconnects are better now too, and that may account for preferring the 75. It may produce some synergy with my newer gear.

As for this thread, the point I’m trying to make is that ANYTHING, including the electronics, could be responsible for the differences heard in playback of Patricia Barber’s “If this isn’t jazz.” The REF75SE has improved the Amazon and Quobuz, Roon, Mosaic, and BluOS paths.

Perhaps in the demo it was the Sasha Vs. I’m sure they’re great. But … they’re not necessary to hear the subject event at mile marker 2:20 as clear as a bell.