Why not XLR ?

[Toberius]

I wonder why CJ does not use this topology.
I have a DAC and a CHORD power that have this connector. I even had an oppo 105 that had XLR.

Any idea?

[AnotherJohnson]

It has been explained by CJ that there is no specific noise benefit in short runs typical of home systems.

Ken Ishiwata felt the same way and did not include balanced connectors on his signature Marantz gear.

I agree.

When you finally get to the speakers, it’s all single ended anyway.

Balanced adds cost. And since CJ has never done it in the past, they would have to add single ended too for compatibility with their legacy gear.

I like balanced … but I think Jeff is right that it’s not necessary, even if it is cool because all studio gear uses it.

[roberto]

Hola Tiberiius,

Here is a much better explanation of why not use balanced...

http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technica ... hite-paper.

Single Ended is the best, purest and cleanest signal. Read carefully the last two paragraphs below of the article. There is no benefit.

Happy listening!

[AnotherJohnson]

If that’s Gayle Sanders, and it looks like it is, he is also happy using Class D amps, and Vojtke crossovers.

My take away from the link is

“Personally, I prefer the simplicity and purity of unbalanced operation even though I will freely admit that I cannot hear any difference between the two. I only use balanced operation when I need to eliminate external noise, such as when doing live recording.”

This is true after level balancing. Most can’t hear any difference… but if you’re sensitive to cables and connectors, you may notice a difference and prefer one over the other.

Of course I like having gear that allows either SE or balanced because it can be mated with more options, and because it gives gain choices. XLR is typically higher gain. So if you’ve got too much gain, choosing to connect the device SE will improve things.

[admin]

Hola Tiberiius,

Here is a much better explanation of why not use balanced...

http://sanderssoundsystems.com/technica ... hite-paper.

Single Ended is the best, purest and cleanest signal. Read carefully the last two paragraphs below of the article. There is no benefit.

Happy listening!

Yup. And the most important paragraph of that article:

So in summary, from a practical standpoint, it really doesn't matter whether you use balanced or unbalanced operation in most home audio systems. Both will sound identical to human hearing even though balanced operation has slightly more distortion and noise.

If balanced had a real practical advantage, every piece of high end audio equipment would have balanced connectors. They don't,... for a good reason.

[AnotherJohnson]

If balanced had a real practical advantage, every piece of high end audio equipment would have balanced connectors. They don't,... for a good reason.

They nearly all do. Even Marantz includes XLR with their high end. Ken Ishiwata’s signature products deferred to his desire to hold the cost down and just include SE.

Some companies, like Krell, have gone further and designed their own proprietary interconnects - C.A.S.T. for example. But they typically included standard industry options too.

Conrad Johnson is a hold out on this issue. If that was Gayle, even Martin Logan offers XLR or RCA on their flagship subs.

On nearly every piece of gear where I had the option to choose balanced or se, I started with se, later tried balanced, and in the end chose between them on issues of gain.

[roberto]

I would say, balanced is convenient because it offers a +6dB signal stronger. So, for a not discern and not well trained ears, balanced distortion is not perceived and it is ok. But for critical listening, at the end of the circuit, usually is the power amp, the signal el converted to a single ended. There is a difference in the balanced signal that produce phase shift at the end of the circuit. This phase shift produce distortion, and this distortion is not present in a single ended signal.

Audio industry is very benevolent and convenient. Because there are so many deaf and melomaniac into the music lovers word, they do like balanced, if they do hear a difference, they do not mind this. The good sales produce balanced, they are not truly audiophiles, If any of you like Balanced, it is OK. I have over -100dB of signal to noise ration with Conrad Johnson gear. Me, I do not like it.

The article is made by the Engineer Roger Sanders. He builds and design electrostatic speakers, preamplifier and power amplifiers. He is a very humble man, with good ears too. He claims that he can not hear the difference between balanced and single ended, but I wonder why he chose single ended.

He says: Naturally it seems sensible to prefer a balanced system. After all, doesn't it seem like a "no-brainer?" Surely a balanced system would be superior to an unbalanced one. Who wants something that is unbalanced? But the truth is that the term "balanced" is a misnomer. There is actually nothing balanced about a "balanced" system. Understand that when music is louder, it sounds better to us. Humans can barely hear the loudness difference when music is played 6 dB louder, so most audiophiles will not recognize that when they switch to balanced operation the music is 6 dB louder. Instead they will recognise that it sounds "better" due to the fact that the music is slightly louder. Personally, I prefer the simplicity and purity of unbalanced operation even though I will freely admit that I cannot hear any difference between the two. I only use balanced operation when I need to eliminate external noise, such as when doing live recording.

And this too: So in summary, from a practical standpoint, it really doesn't matter whether you use balanced or unbalanced operation in most home audio systems. Both will sound identical to human hearing even though balanced operation has slightly more distortion and noise.

[Big Dog RJ]

Roger that Sanders!

And that's why I don't use balanced XLR either, not necessarily any better. I've tried both, even had a full ARC pre-power combination here last week. It was the Ref10 preamp system and the M160's Ref monoblocks. Mighty impressive driving my CLX's, everything you could possibly want from your favourite recordings.

However, at the end of that week, I just prefer my specialist modded CJ gear, that Class A bias of 60w monoblocks and the modded CT5 is one formidable combination. It's a highly custom sound and one that took me over three years to complete. So might as well just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes! Hence, XLR is not required.

During that week, various types of music labels were played from SACD's to LP's. I must say the SACD's sounded exceptionally good on the Ref10 match up. There was one LP in that collection that really stood out, it had so much more soul when played through my custom modded CJ gear. This guy can sing with serious emotion! That 60w Class A bias really captures all those subtle nuances and delivers with real soul and attention to detail, it's just marvellous! Now I can imagine what those Class A 160w ART108A's must sound like. Will most probably get a chance in Feb or early this December. Either way, no XLR required here either, it's a highly misconception of real solid connection. SE is just about simple enough, better to keep things simple where possible.

Cheers, RJ

[Toberius]

Thank you very much to everyone for responding. You have been very clear in your comments.

Thank you very much Roberto for sharing with us Sanders paper.

Best.

[AnotherJohnson]

This is the best presentation of XLR vs RCA that I’ve seen.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/blog/xlr-rca

I agree with him. I’ve NEVER had the trouble with ground loops with XLR that I’ve had with RCA. And thinking about it, XLR between preamp and amp has characterized every high end amp I’ve had in recent years, except CJ.

I’ve been a defender of the argument that there’s no advantage to XLR in the short cable runs of a typical residential installation. In short runs there isn’t much likelihood that RFI or EMI are going to creep in. But the ground loop issue that I’ve had to deal with every time I move my LP275Ms would have been solved by a balanced design.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve advanced up to the point of AQ Thunderbirds for my full set of interconnects. My gear has the ability to run sources to the preamp either balanced or single ended. At this level of cable (nearly $4k for a pair of 1M XLR), it is my impression from listening that Balanced Thunderbirds outperform Single Ended Thunderbirds from the Levinson 5101 to the ARC REF 6SE.

[admin]

Do Levinson or ARC recommend XLR vs RCA or is their opinion neutral as to what they think is superior with their gear?

[AnotherJohnson]

Do Levinson or ARC recommend XLR vs RCA or is their opinion neutral as to what they think is superior with their gear?

Short answer … yes.

Longer answer … nearly everyone recommends balanced over unbalanced. Including reviewers when a comment or comparison is made.

ARC in recent past generation left both options on preamps, but removed unbalanced from the amps.

Because of flexibility to appeal to a wider market, the latest generation of amps has gone back to both.

With Krell, they provided as many as three choices at one time … balanced, unbalanced, and proprietary.

Marantz puts balanced on their flagship, but the KI models were unbalanced in deference to KI’s desire to reach a price point.

Many other brands I’ve owned that had both, recommended balanced over unbalanced.

Regarding my preference, I’m only saying that in this instance between these components, my ears prefer the balanced.

In the past, with the AQ McKenzies, my primary reason for choosing one or the other was mostly driven by gain level. This is a different experience.

FWIW, you can’t make some general assertion that balanced always beats unbalanced. As an example, I have several pair of custom XLR cables I had made maybe 10 years ago by vendors who serve the recording industry. Those were NOT as clear or natural as either balanced OR unbalanced McKenzies.

Every cable evaluation needs to be considered in the context of its own circumstances. CJ is easy because balanced is never going to be an option.