Reading waterfall graph

[AnotherJohnson]

I've seen here https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-s ... -bookshelf they suggest to place 15 degrees off-axis. I'd like to find the same information for my current speakers... Is there a way to understand how to angle the speaker with respect to the listening point?
Also I'm surprised to see they are rotated toward the inner, I would expect to be rotate outward. Mine are currently slightly rotated outward with respect to the conjunction speaker-LP

I saw that too. Martin Logan gives the advice to toe in just enough so that a flashlight beamed from your seat to each speaker places the beam on the panel at a particular spot (on the outer third of the school panel). Others say toe them in to please you. Usually if you toe them out, you don’t improve the image. Your room is not wide enough for much toe in, and you do not want toe out.

Most often if you toe them in, the best seat will be at the apex of the isosceles triangle, or behind it.

For the Sabrinas, Wilson says that you should sit at about 1.1 times the distance between the speakers after toeing them in enough to just begin to see the outer edges of each box.

The answer to your question is to sit in your listening position, and evaluate what you hear when you make changes. Do not rush this process. Leave them in one position for several performances. Then adjust them and listen to the same material again. Do it as many times as you need to.

In the end, you do not have to please the microphone. You have to please your ears. If you can’t hone in on a preference, then it really doesn’t matter. You are trying to find what’s best for you, and if there’s no difference, or you don’t like any of it, that’s data for you to digest. Software isn’t going to help.

[admin]

I've seen here https://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-s ... -bookshelf they suggest to place 15 degrees off-axis. I'd like to find the same information for my current speakers... Is there a way to understand how to angle the speaker with respect to the listening point?
Also I'm surprised to see they are rotated toward the inner, I would expect to be rotate outward. Mine are currently slightly rotated outward with respect to the conjunction speaker-LP

These recommendations are all good starting points but they are not "set it and forget it." Also, you rooms seems to be exceptionally challenging in terms of speaker positioning so I would not have any predetermined plans for subtle estimations of things like toe in. If we can eliminate that massive bass over extension we will have much better sound than a slight toe in difference is going to make.

I should also add that my most popular recommendation for sub $1000 speaker is the magnepan LRS+, but not sure if this is a good choice for your room. I think bookshelves would probably the most ideal solution.

Maybe for my car …

If the OP buys used, he may lose nothing on resale.

I wonder how the Hsu speakers fare on the resale market. That might be the way to buy them.

Choice on the used market will be an audiogon/ebay search for "bookshelf speaker" with a price limit set to $800. If teb76 wants to keep it semi-local (ie Italy), that search is going to be very limited. It is unlikely we will be able to make a recommendation that fits these parameters and is currently on sale in the used market.

I made the suggestion for new speakers as that is always available for purchase. So it's a viable option to buy today.

I hear what you are saying about the Hsu bookshelves' quality. But we have to remember our budget here. For you these may be a "car speaker", but teb76's and your speaker budget differ by two decimal places. That's a big budget difference and quality options in the 3 figure range are limited.

[AnotherJohnson]

If I were he, with his budget, I would forget the new speaker idea and work with the Focals I already had. Speakers are not going to fix this … especially cheap Chinese speakers. I can hear those strings through the Hsu speakers now.

Different strokes for different folks … but $700 Chinese bookshelf speakers could be $700 thrown away when you’ve already got the $1800/pair at msrp Focals.

[AnotherJohnson]

From the Focal owners Manual

Positioning (fig. F, G, H)
These loudspeakers have been designed to deliver the most faithful reproduction of all kinds of music or home cinema programmes. Nonetheless, we recommend following these simple rules to optimise their performance and to warranty good tonal balance and a realistic sound image.
The loudspeakers should be positioned symmetrically, facing the listening area, ideally forming an equilateral triangle with it. However, these distances may be adjusted to find the ideal compromise according to the design of your interior (fig. F).
The loudspeakers should be positioned at the same height, in the same horizontal plane. Ideally, the tweeter should be positioned at the same height as the listener’s ears in the usual listening position (fig. G). Do not position your loudspeakers too close to a corner of the room and do not place them too close to a wall. This will induce some unwanted room resonance and artificially increase bass response. On the other hand, if the bass level is considered to be insufficient, you could try moving the loudspeakers nearer a wall to re-balance the bass level (fig. H).
Optimisation (fig. I)
For perfectionists, here is a formula for optimal positioning:
If A is the distance from the centre of the woofer to the nearest floor or wall, B is the distance to the next closest floor or wall, and C is the greatest distance (A < B < C), the equation B2 = AC defines the ideal loudspeaker position.
• Example:
If the centre of the woofer is 20” (50cm) away from the rear wall (A) and 24” (60cm) above the floor (B), then the side wall will be ideally 28” (72cm) away [C = B2 ⁄ A = 28” (72cm)].
Recommendations for use
The behaviour of the loudspeakers depends on the acoustics of the listening room, on the correct positioning of the loudspeakers within the room, and on the position of the listener.
It is possible to tweak each of these parameters to obtain or improve a desired effect.
Stereo perception is imprecise and poorly centred: try moving the loudspeakers closer together and/or have them facing the listening point:
The sound is harsh, aggressive: the acoustics of your listening room are probably too reverberant. Consider using sound-absorbing materials (carpets, upholstered furniture, tapestries, curtains, etc.) and sound- reflecting materials (furniture) to absorb or diffuse resonance.
The sound is "flat", strangled: there are too many sound-absorbing materials in the room, the sound is soaked up, it has no relief. Look for the best compromise between sound-absorbing and sound-reflecting materials in your room.
In general, aim to have a reflective wall behind the loudspeakers for the sound to develop correctly. The wall behind the listening area, on the other hand, should ideally be sound-absorbing to avoid rear reflections “contaminating” the stereo image.
Furniture can be judiciously placed near the side walls of the room to diffuse sound waves and ensure certain frequency ranges are not excited, particularly in the midrange (suppression of flutter echoes).

[AnotherJohnson]

Here’s the manual

https://pdf.crutchfieldonline.com/Image ... C806BK.PDF

[admin]

If I were he, with his budget, I would forget the new speaker idea and work with the Focals I already had. Speakers are not going to fix this … especially cheap Chinese speakers. I can hear those strings through the Hsu speakers now.

Different strokes for different folks … but $700 Chinese bookshelf speakers could be $700 thrown away when you’ve already got the $1800/pair at msrp Focals.

I agree with you. I don't think bookshelf speakers in this price range are going to be "better speakers" than the focals. I think the reason why we went on the "bookshelf" bandwagon so was so he could get his speakers out of the corners.

[AnotherJohnson]

I agree with you. I don't think bookshelf speakers in this price range are going to be "better speakers" than the focals. I think the reason why we went on the "bookshelf" bandwagon so was so he could get his speakers out of the corners.

But … the actual footprint of the Focals won’t be much different from the footprint of standmounters.

When I suggested bookshelf speakers, I had in mind speakers that were actually voiced to sit on a bookshelf. There are such animals, although not common among recent offerings because of the tendency to want to also sell you the stands. The Denon Home series of smart speakers is voiced to sit about 2” from the wall. I can hear the difference at 1”, 2”, 5”, etc.

I think the Wilson Tiny Tots could work … but they’re WAAAY outside of the budget. Boston Acoustics, Klipsch, KLH, even Acoustic Research made such speakers at one time. But, as you point out, what comes up used is random and also often rare.

If the Focals are placed as guided in the owners manual, they will sound a lot better.

Maybe the OP is a golden eared dude and the beer budget gear will never please him. Buying less good speakers is not going to improve his situation.

[teb76]

I didn't set the budget to 800 euros, I just reported what I found. The real question here is: would bookshelf fits better in my room or do I stick with my loudspeaker and get what I can get given the limitation of the room? I mean one could spend money but not waste money

[AnotherJohnson]

I didn't set the budget to 800 euros, I just reported what I found. The real question here is: would bookshelf fits better in my room or do I stick with my loudspeaker and get what I can get given the limitation of the room? I mean one could spend money but not waste money

I think the issues with the Focals will not be fixed by just replacing the Focals.

Enjoy the music!

[teb76]

BTW I moved the speakers out of the corner! I moved them forward of 20 cm, that's the maximum I can do unless I want the speakers over my legs
Frankly speaking I didn't notice any relevant improvement and also making measures with REW didn't show dramatic change in frequency response. Nevertheless I repeated the room correction and the result is not that bad at ear level, the graphs are shown at the beginning of this thread. Perhaps tomorrow I can post the comparison between the measures without correction done in the current and the previous positions.
Now the distance from the speaker to the sitting position is about 2.4 m while speakers are 3.5 m apart each other

[AnotherJohnson]

Now the distance from the speaker to the sitting position is about 2.4 m while speakers are 3.5 m apart each other

If only you could sit back another meter or a bit more …

[teb76]

I'm searching for a new apartment

[AnotherJohnson]

I'm searching for a new apartment

Cool!

We often don’t appreciate how difficult it is to get the space for a good listening venue.

My wife watches a lot of international house hunting TV shows. The Americans who are moving to other parts of the world come off as whiny babies who have unreasonable expectations.

Good luck with the search.

Seriously though, you may enjoy playing with the REW type stuff, but in the end

a) Electronic EQ compensation often smears time cues and many who try it abandon it.

b) There are generally a finite number of workable speaker and listener locations. You can try them all in a week’s time. Regardless of what the software tells you, it is unreliable compared to your own ears.

c) It is easy to spend money without gaining anything.

Getting a better room is probably the best move you can make. When you’re ready to spend €4000 on the used market for some good floorstanders you will be rewarded. Your current electronics will begin to show off.

[teb76]

That's all true, on the other hand one of the funny sides of this matter is to experiment and try and continously search for something new and something better. Thanks to the admin here I knew Conrad Johnson and I first enjoyed a tube gear, now with REW, ROON and the Matrix i2 I'm exploring DSP and digital hi-res music, in short there is a lot of fun to explore

[AnotherJohnson]

That's all true, on the other hand one of the funny sides of this matter is to experiment and try and continously search for something new and something better. Thanks to the admin here I knew Conrad Johnson and I first enjoyed a tube gear, now with REW, ROON and the Matrix i2 I'm exploring DSP and digital hi-res music, in short there is a lot of fun to explore

There is a lot of value in learning through experience… those lessons are often the best learned.

Yes, we must be thankful that admin has provided a place to learn and that he has a teacher’s heart.

[AnotherJohnson]

You know, you could plug the ports. That will stiffen up the woofer’s suspension and reduce bass output. That would be very low cost … you could use cut foam.

Revel includes port plugs with many of their speakers and they advise to use them if the speakers have to near a wall or corner.

[admin]

You know, you could plug the ports. That will stiffen up the woofer’s suspension and reduce bass output. That would be very low cost … you could use cut foam.

Revel includes port plugs with many of their speakers and they advise to use them if the speakers have to near a wall or corner.

I really like this idea. Have dual ports on my subwoofer in my home theater setup and one of them is plugged. I would try this with the focals until that low end comes down to the point where you don't have to artificially suppress it with the equalizer.

[teb76]

That's a treat idea! Would you suggest to try first with the downward port or the front one?

[teb76]

I did some try, here are the results, where tracks in green means no plug, orange front port plugged, blue bottom port plugged, red both ports plugged.
All of the curves are psyschoacustic smoothed.

Right speaker

R meas.jpg (653.74 KiB) Viewed 5855 times

Left speaker

L meas.jpg (645.51 KiB) Viewed 5855 times

RMS of the speakers

RMS.jpg (659.63 KiB) Viewed 5855 times

Vector average

VA.jpg (672.12 KiB) Viewed 5855 times

Suprisingly (at least for me) plugging both ports influences higher frequencies too. Looking at RMS, the peak at 85 Hz is 4.25 dB lower plugging both of the ports. Bottom port seems to play a more important role in reducing the bump at lower frequency while doesn't affect too much mid and high freqs. Probably it worths to plug the bottom port only.