Roon

[AnotherJohnson]

I searched the site for Roon, and found maybe 7 or 8 self identified users. I called the dCS dealer, and they are using Roon and Tidal in their Rossini demo, and probably throughout the store.

I am curious… now that Roon’s been out for a few years, and perhaps ubiquitous, does anyone have any advice for a noobie?

[admin]

I don't use Roon personally but a lot of people in the audiophile community do. I don't think it is a question of whether Roon is "good or bad", but rather do you need the functionality of what Roon offers. It's basically a front end to playing music from multiple sources and offers a lot of meta data on what's being played as well as a powerful suggestion engine.

If this is what you are looking for, then Roon is perhaps the best available solution. However, if you don't need these functions and don't want to get in to a monthly price plan (I think it's like $10 a month), then is not a very good proposition. It won't make your digital music sound any better, that is not what it does.

I think the suggestion engines on most popular streaming services are already pretty good, so I don't think it is leaps and bounds above them, but some people do feel that Roon's suggestions are superior.

I will say a little tidbit about Tidal. It is my least favorite streaming service. They are pushing really hard on the proprietary MQA format and I think it is terrible for the music and audio industry,... not to mention passing off a lossy format as something that is superior to lossless. They've been caught lying about that in the past and Goldensound's two part youtube review of MQA was pretty damning of the format (and the parent company behind it).


MQA format analysis: https://youtu.be/pRjsu9-Vznc

A nice blog entry from Linn about MQA from an industry perspective: https://www.linn.co.uk/us/blog/mqa-is-b ... -heres-why

[AnotherJohnson]

My sense from reading posts here is that Spotify is not high fidelity. Tidal isn’t particularly trustworthy or good. QoBuz isn’t supported by many, BluOS being an exception. No one seems to use Deezer. Amazon Prime might be OK. Apple isn’t always what it might appear to be. Sirius isn’t really high fi.

It sounds like in spite of the fact that nearly everyone is streaming, there’s no consensus on a truly audiophile level turnkey system.

And then there are the politics of the different companies. And the egos of folks like Neil Young that gin up controversy.

I’m thinking about having Comcast come out and put in some hardwired lines to the two rooms where I’m playing music. But I keep asking myself “Why??”

Sitting in a store demo with an iPad running Roon seems to have a lot of really cool flexibility, and very effective search capability. The demo via the Rossini Apex actually sounded like high end (ARC preamp and amp, Wilson speakers, Transparent wires), but from what you say, it sounds like they must have skills to tweak their streaming services into providing quality files.

I dunno … it looks like an expensive and steep learning curve for someone with high expectations.

[admin]

I dunno … it looks like an expensive and steep learning curve for someone with high expectations.

I suppose like all other things in our hobby.

But I still subscribe to the concept that you don't have to necessarily jump into 5 figure gear to get great digital audio. I think the only component that really needs to be of quality is the DAC as everything that feeds the DAC just needs to bitstream the audio out and that is going to be pretty much the same. Things like Roon are just fancy ways of delivering additional (non-audio) content. Much of high end streamers really come down to their UI and other attributes (like embeded DACs, preamps, and amps). I wouldn't worry about hard wired internet connections as streaming audio is not delivered like bitstream connections but rather via packets (so there is no jitter and other artifacts introduced at that stage).

There are some benefits to streaming that other formats don't offer:

1) Instant access to a near unlimited catalog. We are talking about 100 million tracks that you can access and play within seconds.

2) Extra meta data.

3) Many tracks in above CD resolution (whether they sound better depends on multiple factors).

4) Music discovery. Complex algorithms that make suggestions based on previous play history.

And then of course there are downsides (like any other format). But the question is, do the unique qualities of this format make it worth for the individual to invest into the gear?

[AnotherJohnson]

The built in DACs in my Marantz Ruby and Levinson 5101 have both been reviewed positively, and so I think that any adventure should start there.

But garbage in must still equal garbage out, no?

You can’t fix lousy files … at least I don’t think you can.

With the exception of that one high quality demo at the dCS dealer, it all sounds pretty mediocre to me. From what you’ve said, I think their secret is probably not in the dCS gear, but instead is in what and how the dCS gear is fed. They must have their process optimized.

And that’s the part that’s so confusing. If all the services are sonically flawed in some way, then the attraction must be due to the issues like catelog size, search and suggest software etc. Is that a naive or jaded view?

Obviously I’ve been wrestling with this for a long time. Usually my audio system plan of action solidifies sooner.

[admin]

And that’s the part that’s so confusing. If all the services are sonically flawed in some way, then the attraction must be due to the issues like catelog size, search and suggest software etc. Is that a naive or jaded view?

I don't think this statement is necessarily true. Whether vinyl, CD, or streamed file, I don't think any are inherently sonically flawed. There are good recordings and there are bad recordings. There is nothing inherent in a streamed flac file that would make it worse than pulling the data from a spinning CD. From a technical standpoint, many of the tracks are superior to CD (going up to 24bit 192khz). I think the leap from predominantly vinyl to streaming is more difficult as CD to streaming is just changing the medium and not so much the audio data.

I like it all,... vinyl, CD, SACD, and streaming. Pros and cons to each.

[AnotherJohnson]

Maybe I’m suffering from paralysis by analysis.

[admin]

AJ, I think you are a little.

Also, I think you may be approaching digital in the wrong way. You have built a top of the line system for you analog playback. Really some of the best gear available (and with the new Wilson's arriving shortly, even better). But keep in mind that you did not start your vinyl adventure with the current setup. You don't have to jump all in with a 5 figure dCS unit to get into digital.

Let me put it another way. If you had somebody that up until now only listened to digital and said, "I'm thinking about getting into vinyl but I'm hesitant, what do you recommend?" I wouldn't tell him, get the "Clearaudio Statement V2" for $275k or don't bother. I would tell him, get something like a Rega Planar 3. It's a great sounding turntable, it will allow you to get a good sense of what vinyl has to offer compared to digital, and the entry price is around $1k. If he ends up really getting into vinyl, he'll upgrade anyway. He's not going to get a "bad experience" because he's spinning vinyl with a Rega planar 3 (yes, he also won't get the ultimate performance either). If he doesn't like the sound, most likely it is because he doesn't like the way vinyl sounds and not because he isn't experiencing the ultimate high end playback that the medium has to offer. If he really likes it, he will probably upgrade the player in time anyway. Don't we all? I mean, didn't you just do some upgrades on your Linn recently? So it's seldom where we buy something and "that's the unit we are going to die with."

I can't tell you whether you would really enjoy a serious attempt at streaming audio. But I can say you could get a really good, high end, taste of it for a few thousand dollar investment (without the need to go 5 figures). You could then make a decision whether digital streaming is right for you. If not, that's fair, it's not for everybody. Sell the gear and the entire adventure may have only cost you a few hundred bucks.

Just some thoughts about it.

[AnotherJohnson]

Also, I think you may be approaching digital in the wrong way. You have built a top of the line system for you analog playback. Really some of the best gear available (and with the new Wilson's arriving shortly, even better). But keep in mind that you did not start your vinyl adventure with the current setup. You don't have to jump all in with a 5 figure dCS unit to get into digital.

I agree that you don’t need to jump in on the high end of the hardware. But I do think I need to jump in on the high end of the source materials. If you’re looking for cocktail party music, it doesn’t matter. But you can’t unhear your highest standard, and in critical listening, less will easily show itself.

Let me put it another way. If you had somebody that up until now only listened to digital and said, "I'm thinking about getting into vinyl but I'm hesitant, what do you recommend?" I wouldn't tell him, get the "Clearaudio Statement V2" for $275k or don't bother. I would tell him, get something like a Rega Planar 3. It's a great sounding turntable, it will allow you to get a good sense of what vinyl has to offer compared to digital, and the entry price is around $1k. If he ends up really getting into vinyl, he'll upgrade anyway. He's not going to get a "bad experience" because he's spinning vinyl with a Rega planar 3 (yes, he also won't get the ultimate performance either). If he doesn't like the sound, most likely it is because he doesn't like the way vinyl sounds and not because he isn't experiencing the ultimate high end playback that the medium has to offer. If he really likes it, he will probably upgrade the player in time anyway. Don't we all? I mean, didn't you just do some upgrades on your Linn recently? So it's seldom where we buy something and "that's the unit we are going to die with."

Actually I would not suggest a Rega Planar 3. I think instead that I would suggest that he rethink his interest in going down the vinyl rabbit hole.

If he were persistent, I would probably hook him up with something in the $10k range. There are no $1000 record playing systems that are any more than money wasters … and this is not a tongue in cheek proclamation. $2k for cartridge, $2k for phono equalizer, and $5k for arm and deck, $1 k for RCM. Sure you can “get in” for less. But you cannot even begin to approach glimpses of what vinyl can do for even a nickel less.

There are similarities between intro vinyl and intro streaming. The main similarity is that you need the proper set up before you can exploit the benefits of the medium.

A cleaned record and a properly set up arm and cartridge, plus a record collection are the prerequisites in vinyl. In streaming access to files and the ability to control file quality and format are the equivalents.

I can't tell you whether you would really enjoy a serious attempt at streaming audio. But I can say you could get a really good, high end, taste of it for a few thousand dollar investment (without the need to go 5 figures). You could then make a decision whether digital streaming is right for you. If not, that's fair, it's not for everybody. Sell the gear and the entire adventure may have only cost you a few hundred bucks.

I think you’re right on at least one level, ie I don’t have to spend a fortune to try it.

Of course I’ve already been doing that with HEOS, Sirius, Amazon Prime, Apple, and even the QoBuz free trial.

The only time I feel like it might be worthwhile is when I’m sitting in a demo with the tablet running Roon in my hand. But what do I do then? I search for my favorite records or CDs that I did not bring to the demo.

Well, I think I’ve stripped this vine of its fruit. I appreciate the thoughtful responses.

It does come down to “what do you hope to achieve by adding the capability?” I’m the only one who can answer that question for me. I don’t want background music. We have that if we want it already. What I want is a true high end capability so that streaming would not be a compromise compared to hard media here. I think the only way to be sure that that is what’s achieved is to let the dealer put together a turnkey system comparable to his demo system … and I really don’t think that that would be money well spent.

Thanks!

[AnotherJohnson]

didn't you just do some upgrades on your Linn recently? So it's seldom where we buy something and "that's the unit we are going to die with."

Probably worth mentioning … every LP12 that’s ever rolled out of the factory is upgradable to current specs. That’s a period of 50 years. No company has ever made a greater commitment to a flagship platform.

My first LP12 was built circa 1978. My current top LP12 still proudly bears that serial number. But it has no common parts with the original deck. Not one. It has all been upgraded, some parts more than once.

It had one power supply upgrade, one ps repair, then two ps upgrades.

It has had three bearing upgrades. It has had two plinth upgrades. Four arm upgrades, one cover upgrade. One hinge set replacement. One tonearm cable upgrade. Many spring replacements. Countless cartridges. Two AC motors (repair), and one DC motor upgrade. It has had two sub chassis upgrades. One top plate upgrade. All this done by me up until I let Tom O’Keefe do the Karousel upgrade. Had I believed the stories of how good he was, I’d have had him in on it sooner.

So … I may have had the TT that I will die with for 40+ years already.

Because of the open architecture approach and the large installed base, there’s a large aftermarket of cottage industry built parts.

No other audio components are supported by parts available at any level close to this.

Linn factory service to customers stinks. It always has. That’s by design. You have to have a good dealer for your support.

If someone was interested in vinyl and asked for my advice, I’d have to point this out. Buy the lowest level LP12 and then upgrade it as your interest and budget dictate.

Here’s the entry level at $4995.

https://www.linn.co.uk/us/turntables/majik-lp12

Prices for the top level LP12 begin at $30k.

[Wildcat]

I am curious… now that Roon’s been out for a few years, and perhaps ubiquitous, does anyone have any advice for a noobie?

A shame I missed your initial post! But if you have any usage questions, I've had Roon going on three years now, maybe more, so I know my way around it.

[AnotherJohnson]

Thanks!

[AnotherJohnson]

Im only on my third DAY of using Roon, but I’m sold.

I should have gone this route last November. But maybe I had to go through the learning curve to get here.

First couple of months were focused on getting Comcast sorted out. Then I had to go through various lower level streaming and DAC options.

It’s only been four months. Seems longer. But Roon, Rossini seems like home at this point.

[Wildcat]

I've tried a couple of others in the past couple of months but went right back to Roon. It fits the way I play music. I just started using the "tag" feature. I've been working on the CTI Records catalog and tagged all of those in my library with a "CTI/Kudu" tag so I can see all of the releases on one page. Very handy.

[AnotherJohnson]

Roon continues to delight me. During the two week “free trial,” they send tips and suggestions every day to draw you in. This is also the prime time to buy a Nucleus or Nucleus Plus because those come with a free 1 year subscription. So if you spring for a Nucleus, it’s like getting a $150 discount.

I love how Roon establishes libraries of albums, artists, composers, tracks without you having to download/buy them. It’s like a set of playlists on steroids.

Certainly you don’t have to have Roon to stream, but it is the first thing I’ve seen related to streaming that is actually intuitive, effective, and reliable.

[Wildcat]

One article I had read was mentioning that Roon was really not much good unless you had a streaming service. I have to disagree, as I have ripped my entire collection to a server and Roon makes it simple to search for the artist, pick the album, and play it. The metadata Roon pulls in is often incorrect for some of what is in my library (I think they primarily use MusicBrainz), but it lets me edit the incorrect data easily. (Roon lets you pick its own retrieved data, use data from your own files, or overrides both if you apply your own edits.)

Having Qobuz integrated into my own library is a nice addition though, and anyone visiting who wants to hear the system, or just play music, can find something they are familiar with if I don't own it.

Ripping everything was a chore, but I ended up installing a second CD-ROM drive into the computer and was able to alternate between the two. I tried using a third drive but couldn't keep up, so two was optimum for me. I could rip about 40-50 CDs an hour that way. I did a lot of it in 2014, and completed the bulk of it in 2017. Ripping SACDs required my Oppo BDP-105 (and that's really the only reason I hold onto it now).

Two things I don't use are Roon's recommendations, as I already have a backlog of music I have already discovered on my own that will probably take me years to get through. I also don't use the Roon Radio feature--it's rare that when an album finishes that I want to hear more of the same type of music. If I'm listening to Bill Evans or one of Gerald Wilson's big band albums, I might hop over to Bartok's "Concerto for Orchestra" or Peter Gabriel instead of listening to more piano trio or big band music.

But it does most things right that I need in a player, and since it supports Chromecast, I have several other devices in the house I can play music through using the Roon interface. So in my case, it's a good fit for the household.

[admin]

Sounds like you are going to go the Nucleus route. I think this would be a great choice as it would meat your demands. Even features that you currently are not interested in (like the recommendation engine behind roon) may be of interest for you in the future.

[AnotherJohnson]

In addition to the more powerful processor, the Nucleus Plus has another advantage over the standard model in that it can handle all forms of DSP.

[admin]

Although I see the advantage, I typically don't like to use DSPs of any kind. I think the best audio is the unaltered original data. I have to admit that it is a nice feature to have and it allows for one to "play around". Who is to say that one will prefer a DSP option vs a direct audio stream?

[AnotherJohnson]

I’m still wrestling with the question “Why not just run the Roon Core on the MacBook or Tablet?”

So far, in my very limited experience, I don’t feel constrained by this approach. It is very fast, responsive, and trouble free.

But I’m not stretching any limits. Unlike Wildcat, I do not have an owned personal library. I have not ripped any CDs or records.

My biggest negative so far isn’t related to Roon, but rather to the inability to play SACDs through the Rossini without buying a Rossini or Vivaldi transport. My “get around” is to “suffer” along playing SACDs on the Levinson or SAKI Ruby SACD players. In another week or so I’ll be able to also play them via the MCT500 and MDA 200 McIntosh set up.

I’ve started comparing Redbook CDs to 24/48 and higher streams of the same albums, both through the Rossini. Often I prefer certain visceral aspects of the CD, but not always.

Some redbook CDs are genuinely more lapel grabbing. Can’t help but wonder if it’s all tied to which master.

Also, there are several filtering options present on the Rossini, the Levinson, and the Ruby. You can waste a huge amount of time trying to decide what’s more real. The truth is, without the master tape, there’s no way to actually know.

One things for sure … the number of disappointing tracks has diminished with the improvements I’ve been able to make … starting first with Comcast’s finally sorting out my internet speed issue. That would not have happened without all the help and support I obtained from admin, Wildcat, Joe Appierto, Roberto, RJ, and probably some others.

I think at this point I am able to define (and have implemented) an audiophile level of streaming capability. I am no longer in the “not impressed” camp. Audiophile level streaming is not an easy hill to climb. But neither is vinyl. The easiest hill is the CD/SACD hill. Spend $4k on a decent SACD player, and you’ve got a decent source for that medium.