Premier 11a > Premier 12 worth the upgrade?

[pedalhead]

Hi all. I'm the happy owner of a Premier 11a that I'm currently using to drive some Dynaudio Special 40 speakers. I've got the opportunity to trade my 11a in against a pair of Premier 12s, though I've never heard them and won't have a chance to do so. I do really enjoy the character of my 11a and wouldn't want to lose that, but I wonder if the monoblocks perhaps improve upon it, or maybe they are just the same character that can go louder? Any thoughts appreciated! Thanks.

[admin]

All things being equal I would go with a Premier 12. However, please keep in mind that these units are pushing 3 decades. Sounds like you have a good Premier 11a without any component failure. I would make sure the Premier 12's components are all good. Caps tend to go bad with time and again, 30 years is really pushing the life cycle of some of these units.

As for loudness, yes the Premier 12's can play louder as their output is twice that of the Premier 11a. However, it's unlikely that loudness is the most important factor here. Having the excess power allows you to drive more difficult loads without distortion. That really is the more important factor.

[pedalhead]

Thanks very much for the reply, that's really helpful. I'm actually minded to stick with the 11a because it's a known good unit and I enjoy the sound. There are always other areas that can be upgraded

[Big Dog RJ]

Yep, that's about right. As Admin very correctly pointed out, good advice.

Just to share a few things;

Have owned all three in the series: Prem11A, Prem 12's & Prem 8A monoblocks. Unless you really require the added power, current and need to drive difficult speakers in a larger room, the Prem11A will be more than adequate.

I remember back then, when we first took delivery of the Prem11A, we first hooked it up to a pair of Paradigm Studio 80's. It was marvellous! Then we tried it on big Maggie's full range MG3.5/r. It was a beautiful sound but within limits. Turn up levels and all the LEDs would light up, especially on LF and loud transients. So we would have to turn things down... The room was not large, just that driving ribbons full range was placing a difficult load on the Prem11.

We then tried out the Prem12's and things were much easier. A more forceful version, plenty of headroom and excellent drive plus control. These larger monoblocks were capable of delivering that extra current required to drive and control the Maggie's.

We then got the Apogee Diva's, which are highly inefficient and pose a formidable load for any amplifier. The Prem11A was out of the question, we didn't even try it. The Prem12's did manage but again within limits. It acted like the Prem11A driving the Maggie's... LEDs would light up and stay on for longer periods, hence causing unwanted strain on the amplifiers output stage.

When the Prem8A's arrived, not only did it control and drive the Diva's but took the whole presentation to another level. As if a whole different system was in place! It was awe-inspiring, even driving the Maggie's, it was capable of serious levels in dynamics plus had that whiplash bass that Maggie's are capable of. It was super quick and very nimble, almost had a stat kind of speed. For such control to take place on difficult to drive speakers, these kind of amplifiers will certainly do the job.

Signature sound remains pretty much the same in all three versions, therefore it's mostly focused on much higher power vs current capacity. So, it's upto you, your choice in speakers, listening habits and size of room. If what you're getting at the moment is fully satisfying and you are totally immersed in the presentation, sounds like you're enjoying to the fullest! In which case, there's absolutely no point in going for larger amplification. There are also added maintenance costs involved when it comes to monoblocks, and especially of that vintage model, things need to be carefully considered. It all adds up!

Remember the Prem11A is basically within CJ's "Premier" line up, so in terms of top of the line / SOTA within that series, you've already got it!

Similarly, CJ's latest offerings, the ART150 & ART300's. Have experienced both extensively, honestly between the two, the ART150 is "very fine", probably one of the finest amplifiers money can buy. Then you have the ART300's, which are "mighty fine!" Double the power, double the current capacity, greater the control factor over any type of load. No sweat and no issues for these high powered amplifiers. It all basically depends on your musical tastes and preferences in playback levels within a given room. Plus of course the speaker's impedence load and efficiency... once this match has been obtained, you will experience a great sense of synergy from CJ amplifiers just cruising along... it's outstanding!

Hope that helps a bit more to understand the main differences in larger monoblocks. The Prem11A, when set up optimally in a high quality system, can deliver some real magic with a comfortable load. It's such a beautiful amplifier.

Cheers, and have a good one now.
RJ

[pedalhead]

That was really interesting, thanks for such a great response, RJ. Both you and Admin have made me realise that I am indeed happy with what I already have in the Premier 11A. Just to scratch the itch though, perhaps I'll treat myself to some KT120 tubes & see how they compare to the various KT88s I've been using for the past few years. Cheers!

[AnotherJohnson]

I would not discourage your plan to be happy with the 11. It is a “premier” unit, and very worthy of both praise and joy.

However ... doubling rated continuous power is not just about perceived loudness. Peak power and slew rate have a huge impact on perceived realism due to the way that transients behave.

Listen to a real piano, a real cymbal, a real timpani, a real plucked string. Compare the live event to the reproduction. Most people who are confronted by these comparisons are somewhat taken aback by the clear differences. All other things being equal, greater power within an amplifier family just sounds more like reality, even if your rms power being drawn is lower than rated power for the smaller amp.

There is more space and air between performers, just like sitting near the stage in an unamplified performance.

Note how CJ rates their amps, particularly the distortion specs. They rate them on the loose side.

But they don’t sound loose. They sound as capable controllers. More power is the same as greater ability to rise to the occasion. 70 watts is often not as exciting as 140. 140 is sometimes not as exciting as 275. These steps, because of our logarithmic perception of sound, do not seem hugely different in loudness. But the loudness is a red herring. The real issue is the transient responses profile, and the capability to really control the speaker in the face of difficult passages.

[jahatl513]

I have had both and many Premier 11’s, Premier 12’s and in fact I’m selling a spare C1 Teflon updated Premier 12 set of amps in excellent condition while keeping both a Premier 12 and 11 group with Teflon C1 updates.
My opinion is the 11 is more musical... end of story and that is in the details. Now the 12’s can drive more and with authority. Hell I even have both pairs running my speakers at times; bi-amp.
I agree with the logic of the ADMIN. I would also agree that if you ARE GOING TO KEEP the 11; then a C1 Teflon upgrade is worth it, but you’ll never get your money back out; do it as an upgrade for yourself.

That being said. I have a friend who wants a Premier 11a if you are selling.

JAH

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes very true AJ, more power is definitely a good thing.

However, at the same time I've realised it's not all about power output. It's a great deal more and all to do with current capacity. Power output alone doesn't mean much to so called many highend systems amplifiers out there, and some of which claim to be high powered really can't control difficult loads. They run out of puff and lacking in current.

I believe CJ are very conservative with their Class AB power rating, most of the time it's much higher than what's stated. That overall control and drive from handling transients and loud passages actually comes from current capabilities in the power supplies, and enables the amplifier to output this muscle controlling the speakers response. The speakers have a rated input power handling load, so as long as the speakers can handle it, that amplifier is cruising.

I remember one of my good mates tried 9 different power amplifiers on his Quads and CLX's before finalising on the Pass Labs amplifier. Some of them were big monoblocks delivering in excess of 400w but just couldn't handle full range stats. I had a very similar experience with big monoblocks in the past, although rated high power, they couldn't drive Apogee's or Maggie's full range. McIntosh was one and a French brand at the time called Kora amplifiers, if I've got the name right..., just couldn't handle the ribbons. These were in excess of 450w but lacked the real current required to control reactive loudspeakers.

Never had a problem with CJ amplifiers, always rock solid and highly stable.

It's very true in terms of what you're LP275M's are capable of. Larger the amplifiers, larger the trannys, larger the current capacity. At the same time these components must be supported by rock solid power supplies and this is where the high current factor kicks in.

BTW, I've got a question regarding my amplifiers, will need to post elsewhere. Need our valued members advice...
Cheers mate, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

The difference between power and current is not so dramatic as many in the hobby believe.

In order to maintain power as load drops, current has to increase. When a load is “difficult” it’s the same as saying that the amp can’t deliver the necessary power (via increasing the current) to control the load.

The Krell KSA150 and others were famous for being able to double power as load was halved, all the way down to 1 ohm loads. So 150 into 8 became 300 into 4, 600 into 2, and 1200 into 1. Amperage goes from about 4 all the way to about 35 on this progression - per channel.

Your wall outlet can’t deliver current at this level for more than a very brief period before breakers blow. But for music transients, the period is VERY brief.

You’re not going to get super current delivery out of a less powerful amp compared to a larger amp from the same family.

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, I agree AJ.

Obviously those bigger trannys are always capable of delivering the required current along with that added power.
However, it always intrigued me as to why so many high powered amplifiers couldn't handle difficult loads or sudden impedence swings. Their specs seemed impressive but when listening, it was quite apparent they just didn't have the drive...

Not really sure why, was it a poor design in their power supplies or was it just inadequate transformers being used.
Never had any issues with solid tube power from VTL, Manley Labs, Ayon, ARC, Jadis and of course CJ. Some of those previous names mentioned were usually in the form of tube monoblocks partnered with a CJ preamp. It was a marvellous combination. However, at the end of the day, I guess its a special kind of synergy that forms between a CJ pre-power combination.

Cheers mate,
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Power supply is number 1.

Transformer design is number 2.

There are big amps that definitely suck. The smaller versions of those same amps also suck.

FWIW, I agree that you can’t judge an amp by its power rating.

An example that supports the idea that more power doesn’t necessarily lead to better sound was the original McIntosh 240 vs the original McIntosh 275.

Back in the day when these were new, most listeners felt that the 240 was less tiring and sweeter.

But later during their vintage years, people were willing to pay much more for a good specimen of the 275. And later, when McIntosh decided to capitalize on the vintage fever, they focused on the 275.

We have the same issue I suppose with the Art 27 vs the Art 300. But if you talk with CJ, they recognize that the 27 is not going to deliver the goods unless the speakers are very efficient and the room is of modest size.

I guess I am a power junky, but it is based on a long career of listening. I think all of these questions are difficult to answer unless you know the details of the room and speakers at least. There are some situations where more power won’t help, but will just end up driving the reverberant field.