Kirmuss vs the rest?

[AnotherJohnson]

I personnaly never thought of ultrasonic cleaning as being detrimental to plastics? As long as the vinyl is not being deformed I don't see why it would be a problem? One could argue that the abrasivness of a brush/cleaning powder may be more harmful. It would be really interesting to test this theory and compare under an electron microscope of high magnification microscope.

It takes force to dislodge stuff. The stuff that’s dislodged is dislodged from the vinyl. The dimensions are in microns.

The brush never really gets down into the depths of the grooves, and to the extent that it does, it is generally softer than the vinyl. You can drill a hole with water. You’re not going to drill a hole with a noodle (brush).

And who is using abrasives? That would be idiotic. Really.

I think we are in danger of going down the slippery 2% argument slope, so I defer to your intuition, with the caveat YMMV. Mine does.

[admin]

Yeah, I think we are definitely in the 2% range now!

At the end of the day, I wouldn't mind having any of these machines (ultrasonic or vacuum). I'm still using my cheapo spin-clean.

[AnotherJohnson]

I should not dismiss the abrasive because some significant amount of what’s found in grooves could be categorized as abrasive, including diamond dust.

The arguments of UCM vs RCM are definitely in the 2% range at the practical level.

[Bill Stevenson]

Kirmuss claims that ultrasonic cleaning can damage vinyl records. If you are interested in learning more visit his website or look at some of the stuff on Youtube about him and his products. From all accounts using his system and following his methods works. It is also time consuming. Take a look at the link I provided for the manual aqueous cleaning approach, which is similarly time consuming but costs maybe $50 in materials and would yield a similar result. Or follow AJ and me and buy a VPI vacuum cleaning machine and stick with records that are in good shape to start with. That approach is fast, convenient and leaves a lot more time for listening.

[Bill Stevenson]

Kirmuss claims that ultrasonic cleaning can damage vinyl records. If you are interested in learning more visit his website or look at some of the stuff on Youtube about him and his products. From all accounts using his system and following his methods works. It is also time consuming. Take a look at the link I provided for the manual aqueous cleaning approach, which is similarly time consuming but costs maybe $50 in materials and would yield a similar result. Or follow AJ and me and buy a VPI vacuum cleaning machine and stick with records that are in good shape to start with. That approach is fast, convenient and leaves a lot more time for listening.

[AnotherJohnson]

I decided to replace the Nitty Gritty in System 2 with the HW16.5 and to replace the HW16.5 in system 1 with a VPI MW-1 Cyclone. The three biggest factors were

1. The VPI RCMs have been faultlessly reliable over my 30+ years of using them.

2. The VPI RCMs perform their cleaning task VERY quickly.

3. The MW-1 is quiet and well built. I doubt I’ll ever upgrade it. I’m not even sure what would constitute upgrade.

A fourth reason is that VPI, like CJ, is a small company with no conglomerate backers or managers. The Weisfelds are first rate people and deserve support.

YMMV

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ve used the MW-1 to clean several nominally “already cleaned” records over several listening sessions now.

The bi-directional brushing and more powerful vacuum compared to the HW-16.5 gives a noticeable improvement in noise floor on records that seemed less than perfect after their previous cleanings.

FWIW, my subjective impression is that the MW-1 does a better job than the other vacuum based RCMs that I’ve owned.

[AnotherJohnson]

One other bit on this record cleaning activity.

I know everyone has their own routine, so this is not advice - it’s just anecdotal.

My habit since the mid ‘80s when I got my first VPI RCM, has been to keep the RCM in the listening room where records are also stored.

I go to the shelf, choose a record, and check the sleeve. If the sleeve is a MoFi sleeve, or if the record is marked with a LAST sticker, I assume it’s been cleaned and I go to the TT.

If it’s a paper sleeve, I go to the RCM (and the waiting open package of MoFi sleeves. I clean both sides, and go to the TT.

What about the water vacuumed up? Don’t you drain it? My experience with both VPI and Nitty Gritty machines is that it’s not necessary. If you only do 2 to 8 sides per day, the water evaporates in my climate with my HVAC system. I have never had any significant water collected in either VPI tube or NG tray.

Remember, I do not clean records if they’ve been cleaned before and aren’t noisy. It would be rare for me to clean more than 8 sides in a day.

If the record is noisy on the TT, it goes back to the RCM, but only once. If it’s noisy after a second cleaning, I’ve assumed it was a bad pressing. Or that it was hopelessly dirty. Maybe those records, which are few in my experience with my playback gear, would benefit from more advanced cleaning. Generally, I’d rather just go and find my copy on cd and put that record back on the shelf.

[drinkwine]

Has anyone had any experience with a Loricraft?

[AnotherJohnson]

I looked at the Loricraft. It appears to be very similar to the Keith Monks, which was the inspiration for the original VPI machines (HW16, HW17). Harry Weisfeld did not want to fork over the cost of the Monks, and so he built his prototype. He was friends with Harry Pearson (Editor/ founder of The Absolute Sound magazine). HP was so impressed with what HW had accomplished, that he reviewed it, and HW had 500+ orders, and filling these orders is what started VPI industries.

Is the Monks concept better?

I’ve NEVER seen a review that thought it was. HP did not think so either.

The Monks concept is slower, and does not appear to be more effective.

Even the best British dealers, like Cymbiosis, promote brands that are essentially VPI knockoffs, like Okki Nokki.

I think the real debate is based on VPI vacuum style vs ultrasonic. And, as we’ve seen from Bill Stevenson’s link to Neil’s work above, the ultimate question may be “do you need a machine at all when hand cleaning with Neil’s procedure may be equally good or better.”

I went to the Loricraft web site, and they are woefully short on details or technical substantiation ... but VPI’s website is also lacking in details.

The VPI works for sure. The Monks/Loricraft appears to too ... no reason to doubt it.

So ... this is probably another of those YMMV situations.

I have owned all of the assorted VPI models at one time of another over the last 35 years, as well as Nitty Gritty.

The HW16.5 is a great value for preplay real-time cleaning. The MW-1 is even better. Both are readily available and modestly priced compared to Monks. Both do a great job very quickly. I’m not even sure where a US consumer would find the Loricraft.

Those who aren’t interested in speed seem to prefer the ultrasonics or the hand methods. Among the ultrasonics, there seems to be a debate about convenience and efficacy, with proponents for most choices.

As for other full side vacuum systems, the issues seem to boil down to cost, and red herring issues like record support platter.

There is no doubt that the first cleaning on an RCM or UCM will reduce ticks, pops, and background noise on most vinyl records. After that, there are a lot of ways to skin the cat, and someone likes every one best.

[drinkwine]

Thanks, Another Johnson. I know Mat Weisfeld - great guy and great company. The Loricraft was not on my radar but all of a sudden I saw ads for pre-orders from some guy in NJ. So I looked it up. Anyway, then the ads disappeared! Very weird. I have a friend who had a VPI 16.5, then sold it for a KLaudio (but my friend has a trust fund). You're convincing me to shoot Mat a message.

[AnotherJohnson]

The Weisfelds are nice regular people in many ways. It is easy to root for their success. Mat’s been hosting some customer discussion sessions via zoom. These are strange times.

[Big Dog RJ]

Interesting topic;

Just the other day, I was talking to another highend guru, who was the one that recommended the Esoteric gear, we were talking about record cleaning machines. He's used a few different ones in the past and now uses a KLAudio. Swears by it, says its ultrasonic cleaning and drying is second to none. I'm seriously thinking of one but rounding at close to 6grand, I'm still pondering...

I now choose LP's carefully only going for the high grade stuff, audiophile reference recordings, analog pressings, limited editions from Groove Works, Yarlum 45's, 180g & 200g heavy weights that sort of thing. The difference in quality recordings apart from the standard stuff is a far margin. Then again if the standard stuff is well recorded and well preserved, they're just as goods! The only thing is finding the good ones is really hard. So I've stopped buying from generic stores. The ECM labels are also superb, so if I look after them carefully and replace in their respective sleeves carefully, these should be good to go for the long term.

Spending 6grand on a cleaning machine, perhaps I'm looking at the wrong product, I'm not sure if it's really required at this stage. I'd rather invest that type of spend on upgrading the analog rig.

Any suggestions? What's the best solution apart from careful handling, for a reasonable amount?
RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

Using your 40% rule, there is no way to justify spending for more than an HW16.5. I’ve splurged and added one MW-1, but there’s no way I would spend $6k Aussie, or even whatever that converts to in USD for a cleaning machine. And I am a committed 35 year cleaner.

[admin]

I'm with AnotherJohnson with this one. $6k for ultrasonic record cleaner when there are other ultrasonic cleaners at a fraction of the cost,... it's going to be a hard sell. I would probably need some definitive proof that the extra expense really gives you something that you would not otherwise get from a cheaper solution that utilizes the same technology. There is nothing inherently unique about an ultrasonic cleaner from one manufacturer vs the other as the technology is well established. I'm a little skeptical of why KLaudio one is superior to other that can be bought for under $1k. But in all fairness, I have not tried their products so I'll keep a little bit of an open mind.

[AnotherJohnson]

I’ll take it a step further. ALL USMs are a tedious kabuki dance. Even if it cost the same, I would not bother with it because of the time and aggravation.

In fact, rather than buy a Kirmuss for $995, I spent $1350 for an MW-1. It’s fast and it works. Same goes for the HW16.5 at $700. (Discounts are available with some vendors, even if they don’t advertise it).

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! That's what I thought, I knew I was heading in the wrong direction... I also believe the person who advised / highly recommended the KLAudio, obviously had good intentions but at the same time thought I have unlimited funds since I'm on the Esoteric membership now.

I wasn't going to spend that kind of money for a RCM but the biggest issue I was having was which one to get, as the more I researched this topic the more confoosed I got.

It's definitely a good thing I asked you chaps, afterall that's what this CJO forum is about, helping each other out.

So maties, which one should I get?
Budget wise, best vfm, also does the brand/ company have a importer or representative in Aus? That's the main thing because some of the gear available there isn't available here down unda...

I was nearly going to close on the Kirmuss but it was nearly 2grand. I think there's something out there that can do an equally great job for way less. I just need help in finding it.
Thanks maties, looking forward to your response.

Cheers, RJ

[Big Dog RJ]

I can confirm the price for the following item:
VPI MW-1 Cyclone is listed at 3grand. Imported by Krispy Audio in Sydney. Also happens to be one of the same stores based in NSW that offers the Esoteric digital gear for Sydney's customer base.
I'll call him tomorrow in the arvo and see what he says.

In the meantime if there's something better in terms of vfm, please let me know.
Thanks, RJ

[AnotherJohnson]

People like the Okki Nokki and Project machines, and they’re often cheaper than VPI.

Krispy seems to be a good guy though.

[AnotherJohnson]

You can guess from my own input that I prefer VPI, but for $3k, I’d opt for the HW16.5 or I’d look hard at the VPI knockoffs.