First bad experience with CJ

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ajf75
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First bad experience with CJ

Post by ajf75 »

Hi All. First post on the site. I've been a CJ product owner for more than 15yrs and had been meaning to post some past experiences/insight with CJ products I own since coming across this site - but my phone conversation yesterday with Jeff in CJ's service dept is the impetus for this post.

I have always had great experiences with CJ's service dept and got the impression that as a CJ product owner I was valued and deserved attention - even when I was just looking for information. I know this impression has been echoed elsewhere on the web, as well as on this site. Most of my experience was with Ed and I haven't had a need to reach out to CJ service since he retired. So my experience yesterday with Jeff left me bewildered at best.

Jeff returned a message I left and I explained that I'm interested in replacing all the caps in the power supply section of my P11A as a result of a problem diagnosis (2nd'd by an EE friend). He seemed uninterested in this and said "send us the amp and we'll diagnose and fix the problem - do you have the original packing?". I replied "no it was a casualty of a divorce". He responded with "from NJ? Just drive it down" (This is 20hrs driving total from northern NJ - back and forth 2x and would have to be done during weekdays when they are open and thru nasty DC area traffic). I said "look I'm really just trying to order the parts - the Teflon caps if possible". He replied "we don't sell parts". Very surprised by this, I repeated "You don't sell parts??" He said "right, we're not a parts supplier". I was expecting him to expand on what he meant by saying we don't sell parts from the Teflon Cap upgrade kit, or maybe even that I'd need to order caps thru a dealer - but nothing of the sort (Ed did sell me parts in the past - but admittedly I never needed circuit components). It was fairly clear to me that once Jeff realized he wasn't likely to make a service "sale", he just wanted to get off the phone.

I should also mention that while Jeff was trying to get off the phone, I stopped him to ask "if" I brought the amp in for service, would you replace just the power supply section caps with the Teflon "C1" upgrade caps if that’s what I want? (this is honestly less about cost and more about not wanting to change the sound signature away from what I love, and doing only the p/s section seems like a way to get some benefit of the Teflon caps with minimal risk to sound signature - not to mention my belief that the problem lies with a p/s section cap). His response was "No, we don’t want to have some products out there with only half an upgrade -we won't be able to keep track". Seriously - who's the customer here?

Has anyone else here experienced anything like this with CJ service and found a 'good' solution, know of an alternate CJ contact that may be more helpful, or have any other suggestions? Have to admit this threw me for a loop - I bought a not inexpensive CT-5 partly on the assumption I can keep this thing forever as any problems are just a phone call away - not so sure at the moment...


Thanks in advance for any useful feedback,

AJ
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by admin »

Sad to hear this. I haven't spoken to CJ customer support since Ed left. Ed was great, very friendly, and we had some chit chat about classical music (which he started). He actually gave me some advice on how to trouble shoot a bad tube in my PV12 which saved me buying an extra tube. I bought tubes, so not sure why they don't sell other components? I hope this is not something that is typical of CJ. You may want to contact Spearit Sound in Mass, I know they sell a lot of CJ stuff, maybe they can work on your unit.

Shipping the CT-5 should not be that hard even without the original package as it weights a "managable" 31 lbs. Let us know what happens.
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by Joe Appierto »

What surprises me is that the person you spoke to just didn't suggest sending you a new shipping box. There would have been a charge for both the box itself and the shipping expense but certainly that's a heck of a lot more reasonable than asking you to drive it down there.

On the other hand, I can understand their not wanting to send out parts. They're a manufacturer and not a parts supplier as Jeff said. Also, it would create potential control problems for them down the road had they supplied a "partial upgrade" package to you both in terms of just keeping track of who's done what to which of their products especially if it were later resold and then sent to them for other repairs.

If I may, I'd suggest you get in touch with http://www.musictechnology.com/ and explain your situation to them. The company is headed by Bill Thalmann who was the #3 person at conrad-johnson (after Messrs. Conrad and Johnson) and their chief designer for 20 years. I've dealt with Bill twice -- once in 1998 when he modified and upgraded my PV-10AL to 10A status and just a year or so ago when he worked on my CA200. My experience has been positive in both cases and whatever needs to be done will be, nothing more nor less.
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by ajf75 »

Thanks for the replies and input guys.

Joe, I had exactly the same thought regarding the box, but by the end of conversation I could tell this guy wasn't all that interested in helping so I didn't go there. But regarding the 'not selling parts' I can't agree at all.

Any reputable manufacturer of anything has to make parts available for servicing. And CJ isn't any reputable co, they are clearly in the 1% club as manufactures of luxury goods. How are they providing customer service befitting such a high end co. By telling the customer they won't sell you the parts you are asking for? I assure you that I can call the Ferrari dealer and order pistons and they won't say "you can't do that work yourself so we won't sell them to you". Jeff didn't say sorry these parts are no longer available, or make any other conditional offer. In effect he stated that it may be your amp but the only one who is allowed to work on your amp is us. This isn't my idea of good service.

I'm a handy guy, my dad was a 'ham' who taught me good soldering skills at a young age, I've built kit amps (following plans /schematics), am capable of doing things with surgical precision (I have a vintage lotus car that regularly requires this skill), and believe that I know my limits of what I can/should do on my own. So to be told no we won't sell you the OEM parts is infuriating to me and never expected I would be in this situation with CJ gear.

Anyhow, thanks for listening and sorry for my rant! I think I will call MusicTechnology just to see what that may lead to...


AJ
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by ajf75 »

Joe,
While browsing the net the last couple days on my issue I came across the CJ section of the Audi_ Aficianad_ site, and noticed today that you have a few posts there as well. Do you happen to know if any CJ reps participate in chat there?

I ask because I'd like to get, from CJ "management", their official position on parts availability to product owners, and their reasoning - preferably in a public forum. There's a Bob "Coppy" who seems to have some connections to Lew Johnson - but couldn't determine more.


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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by Joe Appierto »

ajf75 wrote:Joe,
While browsing the net the last couple days on my issue I came across the CJ section of the Audi_ Aficianad_ site, and noticed today that you have a few posts there as well. Do you happen to know if any CJ reps participate in chat there?

I ask because I'd like to get, from CJ "management", their official position on parts availability to product owners, and their reasoning - preferably in a public forum. There's a Bob "Coppy" who seems to have some connections to Lew Johnson - but couldn't determine more.


AJ
current owner: MV-55, P11A, CT-5 Pre
There was a point in time, during the period when c-j moved their physical location, that Lew Johnson posted to the forum you mention. His sign-on was/is cjlew but the last (of six) posting I see from him is dated 11/14/2013 so he's really not active there. Whether he still monitors the site, however, I don't know. There is a way to contact him via http://www.audioaficionado.org/members/cjlew.html but you need to be a member of that forum to do so. That having been said, you could join but it costs $25 for a year's subscription.

Sorry I wasn't more help.
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by ajf75 »

Thanks Joe! Very good info and your help certainly exceeds any obligations to assist my cause - so it is appreciated.

Will reply again for the sake of this forum if there are further developments.

AJ
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by Joe Appierto »

You're welcome, AJ. I would be curious to see what they/he says. The impression I get is that since Ed left their customer service unit the level of their service has been more hit and miss which is a shame really.
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by Righttrack »

First post on the site. I spoke to Ed once before he retired. About an hour conversation on a tube question. I can understand AJ's frustration since Ed is now retired. I have personally dropped off and picked up a couple preamps at CJ's old location. 16 LS to 16 II and a service on 17 LS II. Jeff was my Primary contact. He is a lead tech and did exceptional work on the preamps. I can say he is no nonsense and direct. I believe he has seen and heard it all. His position and CJ's on parts is understood. They want quality control.
Mel, the gal that handles so many jobs at CJ, was in a serious auto accident at the time and they were very short handed.
Jeff told me that if it was not for foreign sales they would fold up.
Jeff also upgraded a PV 12 w/ phono to the Teflon caps upgrade. His suggestion was well worth the money.
If I need surgery I want the best doctor. I don't care about his bedside manner.
Jeff is excellent at his position. Hey Ed, come on back!
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by AudioDon »

I had a similar experience as the OP. Ed was always very helpful, and enjoyed the conversation on the phone. Not so much with Jeff.
I bought a demo'd MF-2550 off of Amazon (via Spearit). I knew it would not be mint when I got it, but it was poorly boxed from Amazon (not original) and was falling out of the box when it arrived. It had been dropped 3 or 4 times based on the bent cooling fins. Anyway I was trying to get an idea of what the cost of the parts would be so I could negotiate a better deal with Amazon. I spoke with Jeff, and he said "tell me what it needs and I'll email you in a week. 3 weeks went by, and I never heard. I called and spoke with a woman in the office, and she said Jeff would get back to me. The next day I got an email saying that parts weren't available. Really? No heat sink's, no face plate?

The good news is that it still worked great despite being dropped. Amazon would only offer 10% discount and so I returned it.

It seems like they're marketing to Dr's and Laywers and not the little guy.

Now Bill Thallman at Music Technology is very interested in helping.

Don
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Re: First bad experience with CJ

Post by Billy Budapest »

I am a lawyer. CJ is just as expensive to lawyers as to "the little guy," whatever exactly that means. Dollars are dollars. CJ ain't cheap, no matter who is buying.
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