New Member from the high country, Arizona

[Yaro]

Hello all,

I was just searching for information on upgrading my 17LS to a 17LSII, and also for tube options, and I found this site. I didn't know it existed until now and decided to join.

The 17LS feeds an MF2250A. I hope to learn a lot here!

Cheers,
Joe

[admin]

Hi Joe,
Welcome to the site. We currently only have the 17LS schematic in our database so I think doing the upgrade without the other schematic would be difficult. Unfortunately, Conrad Johnson's website does not seem to have too much info on this unit either. I did find this article on their site that may be somewhat helpful. http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_so ... i+PR17.pdf

Again, welcome to the site. If you run across a schematic for the 17LS2 please email it to me so I can update our database. Thanks!

[Yaro]

Thank you! If I upgrade I would send the unit back to cj and have them do it. The considerations are cost (i'm guessing it's a lot of $$) and sound quality improvements. There are a couple of articles on sound quality, but I'd like to learn more before making any kind of decision.

Thanks,
Joe

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day Joe, greetings from Melbourne.

Great combination- 17LS with MF series power amp. The next obvious upgrade would be the 16LS but they are hard to find. Or even an ACT2 Series 2 for that matter. If c-j can do the job for a fairly reasonable cost that would be the best way to go. There are other tech chaps out there who can very easily do the job. However, knowing that it is being attended to at its' own head quarters, certainly gives you that peace of mind; Therefore, a cost well spent.
The 17LS-2 would no doubt be an improvement in all areas of performance over the standard model by a fairly good margin. It would not be a "big margin" though because it is still the same basic circuit-element as the original 17LS, unless you were to acquire one of their top-end models.

I had a very similar experience first upgrading from a standard Classic pre to the SE version, then with my ACT2 upgrading to the series 2. It was what I would refer to as a fairly decent "well spent" margin but nothing to get overly excited about. The standard/original circuit of the ACT2 is top-end in design in every way, therefore a series 2 of that design could be termed as a "further refinement."

The other thing to remember is that this so called further refinement may not be so apparent unless you were to upgrade cables & interconnects, which I did from average good quality brands to better offerings from Nordost. Then, this level of realism starts to really kick in, and eventually you realize that it is not just a pre-amp upgrade, rather the whole system has been upgraded in terms of overall cohesive synergy. With the better cabling/power cords/interconnects & power boards, the system's full potential can be realized.

It's pretty much the same upgrade with their current top of the line GAT preamp; now offering the GAT-series 2 is not a huge step in improvement, rather an overall step up in all elements of presentation of what the preamp is capable of: more resolution, refined micro details, nuances are clearer & more defined, seems more lively and sharper/richer sound BUT really all of this is far more realized with accompanying cabling.

After all, this is a business and not a charity or family picnic, hence companies need to survive and sustain their businesses. Upgrading on an already fantastic high quality circuit would make more sense than forcing someone to spend three to four times more to acquire better sound. Make a few upgrades and people (customers) will start to provide positive feedback- this is the spark to more sales in the long run, and the cycle goes on...

At the end of the day, in my opinion, if you can afford it, go for it. If it really is a major decision to make financially, don't bother- just enjoy your music!
Cheers, RJ

[Yaro]

Hi RJ, it's nice to hear from someone in Melbourne. I hope you are enjoying summer; we just received almost a meter of snow with more on the way.

Thank you for the good thoughts - that really helps. When I put my system together I spent a lot of time trying different cables and interconnects and I ended up going with MIT. I have Thiel CS1.6 speakers that are very detailed and revealing, and in blind listening sessions the MIT cables sounded, by a large margin, the best to me (and I think they did to the guys at the audio shop too, even though one of them was a Kimber fan). I have found that small differences in my setup make a noticeable difference to my ears - as I'm sure is par for the course here.

What do you think about tube rolling in the 17LS? I've read that many people prefer 6922s that are of a different brand than those that come from cj in the 17LS. Could that yield a higher sound/cost ratio?

Cheers!
Joe

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, Tube rolling would certainly help, it would yield good results and not so good results depending on brands/types/configs/quality control/reliability etc. I cannot tell you what is best because only your ears are golden, hence it's a preference.

In all my experience in this crazy wonderful passion, I have mostly been happy with whatever tube upgrades after consulting with the designers directly. For example, when I had Manley amps, I was in touch with Eve Anna Manley (president Manley labs). She would recommend several types to try out. She was also kind enough to send me a few free of charge. Similarly Lew Johnson and my c-j/Quad dealer buddy has always been very helpful. I was fortunate to be in touch with Lew many years ago, and learnt a great deal from him.

I have been able to source tubes for small to moderate amps, where the total number of output tubes required was nothing more than a pair or so. This keeps costs at a minimum, and allows you to try various brands/types, nothing like trying them out in your own system. With large monoblocks or large stereo amps, tube rolling is way costly, you're looking at around 6-8 pairs of output tubes. Not something you could do often, too many spare tubes.

Tube rolling may deliver an overall better sound to your liking, you'd have to try it out. One thing for sure is upgrading the 17LS to a series 2 version will definitely yield better results. Regardless of how marginal the improvement- you will notice the difference at once. It all depends on the overall system's synergy and how it interacts with this upgrade, several aspects come to mind:

1. Was it more cost effective to just tube roll and upgrade a few power cords?
2. Was it better to just upgrade the entire cabling from power cords/speaker cable to Interconnects to the power board?
3. Would it be better to upgrade the AC mains power conditioner first?
4. Having isolation feet, spikes, Sort Cones, anti-vibration accessories under each component may yield far better results.
5. Doing up the listening room would also yield superb results with critical speaker placement and positioning.
Doing the entire upgrade on all of the above would be the ideal, and would yield the highest possible results. Therefore, you could do this in stages, starting with each as a project for the year or month, without having to purchase new components. This would yield the greatest results from your system's potential.

I would sincerely say, depending on your finances, upgrading the 17LS to a series 2 would be the way to go first, and then experimenting with other critical areas down the line. The main thing to remember is- never get carried away from a dealer demo- because the dynamics are very different from your home environment in every sense of system performance. Just focus on what your system can do and how you could improve it towards that 90-99% performance standard. Once you have achieved that, just sit back and enjoy the music.

Thiel's are outstanding speakers, designed by a well respected designer, Jim Theil. Legends like Jim don't come around too often.

Cheers, RJ