The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

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The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Big Dog RJ »

G’day from down unda! Trust all is well and tunes are playing. I just posted this same topic on Whats Best Forum for those using planar ribbons or stats, thought I'd share a few notes here as well.

Over the last few months, had the pleasure of listening closely to some well-established names in the industry, and ones that I truly admire. Comparing overall sound & pricing, items listed:

Amplifiers: Conrad Johnson ARTsa, LP125sa, Audio Research Ref75, and GS150
Preamplifiers: CJ ET5, & Classic 2SE (with phono stage) and ARC GSPre
Speaker systems: Quad ESL2905 (my own pair) and Magnepan MG3.7i

Very interesting run this was, especially with Maggies. There weren’t too many amps that could bring out the best in maggies. Basically it was the ARTsa and GS150 that performed superbly well. Comparatively, two equally superb sounding amplifiers, matched with top end preamplifiers would probably make the difference.
The Ref75 was somewhat ok, seemed to struggle at times on the MG3.7i for some reason, it didn’t quite impress. Compared to my Classic 60SE, it had no problem driving maggies within limits of course. Since I do not listen to loud whatsoever, the Classic 60SE was quite marvellous on the maggies. Reminded me of those glorious days with the Premier 11A & MG3.5/R.

The Ref75 was however fantastic on the Quads, probably the best match overall. It was the most detailed, transparent, powerful and well controlled reproduction I had heard from my Quads to date in this price point. I first partnered it with the ET5 using adaptor cables since the ET5 doesn’t have provision for XLR connections. Even with the adaptors, the sound was fine. Later on I tried the GSpre, better synergy but lost that pure CJ airiness and smooth top end that CJ is known for. I could still happily live with the GSpre and Ref75 with the Quads but not on the maggies, the GS150 was a far better amplifier overall.

Driving the maggies with the CJ-LP125sa was not much of a difference either in terms of power. Though the GS150 did prove to be more controlled in the lower bass. The MG3.7i’s seemed to open up more each time more power was driving it. It would virtually react as a horn type speaker with startling transients, soft as a whisper with sudden acceleration of notes in a lightning bolt performance with the GS150. In conclusion, I really preferred this combination on maggies with the GSpre + GS150 amp, excellent control and sense of depth.

Now for Quads- driving it with the LP125sa and ARTsa once again didn’t seem much of a major difference in terms of power but when it came to that sweet expansive soundstage, along with superb depth and imaging, effortless transient response with the smoothest power & finesse, there really is nothing more of a total enjoyment listening to the ARTsa and Quads- simply superb!

The LP125sa had all the same virtues of that expansive soundstage, depth and imaging, smooth airy highs, extended top end and fantastic midrange, with superb musicality, it's just that the ARTsa takes this to another level.

In terms of preamps, there wasn’t a major difference in performance although there was a huge difference in pricing. The GSpre sounded superb and the simple CJ Classic 2SE was equally good on every recording I played (even Taylor Swift on CD sounded so detailed, never knew some of those details ever existed!). What I did notice on the preamps, as the price and level of sophistication went up, there are definite improvements along the way. That extra edge of finesses, tighter mid-lower bass, more open midrange & smoother highs with well controlled bass gets better as you go up in price but to me, it was only marginal. The power amp is what made the most biggest significant difference in sound.

Therefore, I would strongly recommend to anyone to focus your spend on the power amplifier, partnering it with any good quality preamp would work just fine. You really don’t need to spend 50 grand just for a top end pre-power combination. Of course for those who can afford anything, a top end preamp would be the ultimate match but I have learnt it is definitely not necessary.

Similar to when I listened to the GAT, GATS2 and my Act2, the improvements were only marginal and therefore to me could not justify the extra dollars, which was quite a far jump. Sure the GATS2 sounds superb and so does the Classic 2SE and so does the ARC Ref6 & LS28 as well...
Since I prefer things to be simple, I really enjoyed the Classic 2SE and it’s built in phono stage, it is a true Classic! The Classic 2SE has that crisp feel when adjusting the level control and input selector. It has a very strong/solid click as you go through its input selection. It has a superb volume control range that does allow you to set micro levels compared to earlier versions, and most of all it is very musical!

In summary, I did enjoy very much the new ARC system of the GSpre + GS150 combination on the MG3.7i’s. This was a wonderful system to listen to, the synergy was just superb. The CJ-LP125sa does cost less than the GS150, and was also able to drive the maggies quite well. Therefore, if you are looking for something more affordable, the LP125sa will not disappoint. It is probably one of the best power amps CJ has ever produced in the 125w/ch price range. I highly recommend it.

Deciding factor: since I have Quads, the buck stops here! I have had so many problems with these dam stats, and so many wonderful times with them, therefore I am not looking to change these speakers. All I can say is that the ARTsa & Classic 2SE was an outstanding combination on the Quads. I could not think of anything more simple, with just two controls and that LED in front, when powered up you know straight away that you’re in for a great ride! Both the line stage and phonostage are super quiet and respond extremely well, compared to other phono stages I’ve used. For those who can afford the top gear, the ET5 or GSpre would be an excellent combination or even the GAT S2 for that matter.

The CJ ARTsa is really "all an amplifier can be".
Cheers to those who have the ARTsa, this is one of the best decisions in audio.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by admin »

As always, a great and informative write-up. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Big Dog RJ »

no worries Admin, thanks for your feedback.

I'm certainly not the expert in recommending components outright but what I have experienced with my own ears and seen where so many so called "high-end" gear fail miserably mainly due to poor design but fancy pricing...

I would certainly not say that ARC gear is designed badly nor is it overly priced. Just compared to CJ there is no comparison. CJ is far more affordable than most ARC gear and it has a musicality factor that is really hard to beat. When I listened to my Quads with the ARC REF75 and ARC preamp the sound was powerful, very dynamic, superb impact, depth and all the goodies but it lacked that special musicality that CJ delivers.

I know many out there think that CJ's bass is rounded off to give that extra bloom in the midband and extended airy highs. True maybe to a certain extent but the most of live music that I've experienced, even the solo bass sax played by a single individual on the sidewalk, sounds exactly like a CJ component! And this I term as the "absolute sound."

It is not bass heavy, nor is it bright or too annoying in the mids (like horns) basically it just sounds right- I guess that's why we have this forum.
Great job on having this forum Admin, must thank you for that.

When I do get the CAV45 I will report immediately with a full write up of what it can and can't do, obviously I will be evaluating it directly with the Classic 60SE and Classic 2SE pre. I will also take it over to my maggie mate's place and give it a spin on his MG3.7i's.

I must say though that ARTsa is truly something special, I'm not sure if people realise that you really don't need to have a top line preamp such as the GAT/GATS2 to get the ARTsa sounding best, the simple Classic 2SE works just fine- that was my main point and to also address those with limited budgets like myself...
Cheers, RJ
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Bill Stevenson »

Well what an encouraging read. I bought an ARTsa and ET5 two years ago now and have enjoyed them immensely. It is nice to learn that I am not crazy. My speakers are Sony SS-AR2s, quite a different kettle of fish from Quads, or Maggies for that matter. I have to say, that I love the sound. None better. I did consider ARC Ref 75 and McIntosh 275-VI, but really just found cj sounded better...at least to me. So here we are in full agreement and enjoyment irrespective of the speakers used. Thanks very much for your comments.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Big Dog RJ »

No worries at all Bill. Hey nice to hear from you.

The ARC Ref75 and McIntosh Mc275 are wonderful amps in their own right. They also need to be partnered with very high quality pre's in order to sound their best. Whereas the ARTsa is completely in a different league! It is capable of delivering outstanding performance regardless of the preamp, and if you match it with top end pre's it would sound even better, taking the overall performance to celestial heights...

That was my main point- it really is "all an amplifier can be" probably the best CJ has ever produced to date!

I have listened to the ARTsa both in triode mode and ultra linear using EL34's and KT120's. The EL34's were just magical! (the ARTsa in triode reduces the output to half rated at 70w/ch, but has plenty of current drive) This triode version would suit speakers with a higher sensitivity (ideally 90dB and above), not necessarily an easier load, as the ARTsa can drive virtually anything from 1 ohm to 20 ohm's. That is why I would like to partner this with a pair of Martin Logan CLX's one day. That would be the ultimate but for now the Pass Labs would have to do, as I intend to keep the Cav45 at least for a while- of course when it arrives.

Enjoy your ARTsa Bill, I know this will probably be the one amplifier that you would ever need. The sound of the ARTsa only further improves as you go up the preamp chain because the ARTsa requires no further improvement.
Cheers, RJ
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Bill Stevenson »

As far as preamps go, I will admit to being curious about the GAT, but have been put off by the cost differential for what has been described to me as a marginal performance difference in my use. I listen almost exclusively to small group acoustic jazz. So the massed chorale in the final movement of Beethoven's 9th, where the GAT would be expected to shine in comparison, is of no interest to me whatsoever. I think I have the right setup for my requirements at the moment.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Yes, no doubt Bill! The ET5 that you are using with the ARTsa is already at SOTA standard. There is really nothing more you require from that pre-power match up. I have heard the GAT and the GATS2, again marginal improvements and this is something that people are willing to pay just for that small improvement because they cannot listen without it! AND then comes along an SE version or a series 3 that improves the performance further, and the vicious cycle of upgrades commences...

There will never be the "best sounding gear" at any given point regardless of price. What I've learned along the way is to keep the system as simple as possible, if at all taking out unnecessary components in the chain (unless required). Reducing the lengths of cords, interconnects and having dedicated AC wiring all contributes to a great sounding system. The room is another huge factor to consider, plus the items in the room that absorb sound, the high frequencies and lows need room to breathe, therefore should be reproduced from the speakers unhindered (regardless of speakers used).

I have seen many ultra expensive systems in a totally unbalanced room, and booming with extra sub bass and ridiculous brightness but the owner believes they are listening to the best, simply because it is the most expensive! They haven't got a clue what Real and Natural music should sound like, and especially when reproduced from an audio system without the "stage effects."

Once you get this balance right- the rest falls into place very nicely, and when that happens only your ears will be the final judge (provided your hearing is accurate as well).
I strongly believe it is definitely not necessary to spend mega bucks to achieve good natural sound. The most musical and highly engaging systems I have listened to have also been the most simplest of all. No cross-overs, no additional gear for enhancing sound, and with proper room balance the musicality factor is at a very high level.

Enjoy that ET5 and ARTsa with those Sony's, I am sure it is reproducing everything you possibly want.
Cheers to classic music by the way! Only a few systems can really achieve the sheer dynamic swings of great classical recordings.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by ronenash »

The LP125sa+ would be a much closer match to the ARTsa as it also comes with the Teflon capacitors and top Vishay resistors as the ARTsa although in a much cheaper case. I have heard both and they are very close. I actually preffered my LP125m SE mono blocks to the ARTsa. The mono block configuration seems to create a better soundstage the stereo ARTsa.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Hey mate,

Yes, agreed to a certain extent Re. to the LP125m SE version. However, price point in Aus is ridiculous! Might as well go for the ARTsa in that case.

I also found there is far greater synergy in a stereo set up compared to monoblocks. I have extensively used mono's and yes, they were great in terms of soundstage, separation, depth, power and dynamics. At the end of the day, I ventured towards the simpler route, and over the decades have found that the musicality factor, and all of the previous attributes mentioned, has some of sort of synergy that is not found on mono amps.

To me the ARTsa in triode mode is still the ultimate and has been my reference amp to date. The ARTsa in UL pentode with KT120's is outstanding no doubt but there is something magical those EL34's do for me like no other, it is actually quite hard to explain and is definitely a personal preference. So it is a good thing these are tubes and not SS because you can't experience all these flavours with SS...

The standard versions - LP125m's are in the CJ dealer chaps at this moment, they'be been sitting there since 2010. Since that time, many interested music lovers and audiophiles plus CJ enthusiasts have come and gone (including myself) and bought other ones, such as LP270's, LP70s, MV60 series, Classic series and older premier 140's, LP66s, and prem 350. I told the chappy to change the ouput tubes to KT120's and of course the sound was further refined by quite a margin. The only problem is they're now collecting dust and cannot be sold at the original price, which was nearly 15 grand! He had to obviously drop to much lower just to get an interest but still to this day no takers simply because CJ's newer offerings are mostly based on stereo versions, they're simpler to use and do sound more coherent to me.

I would definitely use mono's for demo purposes as they do provide the ultimate in power and dynamics. He has offered me a very special price on the LP125m's and the SE version, since I've been a long time customer since 2004. However, now my priorities have changed since I'm finally building our new home after 13 bloody long years of dead rent! Plus the CAV45's overall synergy is good enough for me. The ML Ethos don't even require that much power.

Once the house is complete and all done & dusted, perhaps I may venture towards the new Classic series being offered. The Classic 120 with EL34's is definitely one admirable amplifier from a classic designer!
Cheers to CJ!
RJ
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by ronenash »

Different folks different strokes I guess. I experience has been very different. One of my best friends is the local CJ dealer and I was his technician when he needed to service a CJ amp. I have had the chance to hear and service almost every CJ amp in the past 30 years. To me the mono blocks always sounded better and are more versatile. CJ moved to stereo amps in the 120-140w range as a cost cut measure and not for sound quality reasons. The Art SA is a great amplifier obviously regardless the fact that it is a stereo amp.
As for Triode vs. pentode, I agree that EL34 triode has a special sound but for me you loose too much in the areas of dynamics, extension, staging, etc. The mid is magical but elsewhere its a big compromise. A personal taste and your choice of music I guess. BTW when I talked to Lew Johnson a couple of years ago about changing to triode configuration he said that most of their customers that have made to move to triode ended up going back to pentode. Yo also see very little triode configured CJ's in the used market. I am sure to some its heaven though.

Enjoy the music
RA
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Big Dog RJ »

Yes mate, I actually do agree on that.

No doubt the EL34's have that "caramel" affect on the mids, and it is highly addictive. On the other hand it is much softer impact considering pentodes, and their powerful counterparts, such as the KT120's and so on. I guess matching it with powered speaker systems doesn't require that extra oomph, and this is most probably what I'm experiencing with the Ethos.

I sincerely think the Premier 8's were probably the best mono amps CJ ever made. The ART amps do not sound anything like those. They are more forceful and have that tremendous dynamic drive along with a very high level of musicality like no other. For the price range it was a good deal as well, considering the lofty offerings nowadays...

I was very tempted to go for the LP125m's, they're still available. I will look into this down the line once the house is completed mid next year. Perhaps towards the end of the year, I would have more options to consider, new Classic series 60 & 120, plus ARTsa or LP125m. In terms of preamps, I don't like any of CJ's new offerings, other than the GAT or ET5. I don't have my ACT2 any longer, and I don't miss it either. What I do like very much is the Classic series premaps, always preferred analog level control, old school I guess.

Hey Ron, what preamp would you recommend considering linestage only versions?

I have tried the ET3 series upto the ET5, it was only the GAT and GATS2 that made the biggest difference in sonic performance but the price factor, forget it! In Aus that's a down payment on a new house! Hence my priorities will change...

Over here, they're not offering the Classic series any more, don't know why... something to do with Nth American dealerships and CJ's new line of production. I have always preferred CJ's linestages for many years, and keep coming back to them. Venturing away would be a huge decision unless there was nothing offered in terms of analog control down the line.

Would certainly be interesting to know.
Cheers, RJ
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by ronenash »

A few points to consider:
1. CJ need to release new amplifiers every few years to stay in the market but there is very little difference between their older models and newer ones. The Classic 120 is the same circuit as the LP125sa which is essentially the same as the LP125m mono blocks apart from using 6H30 tubes instead of 6922 as phase splitters. I actually prefer the 6922 as there are more options for tube rolling. It you look at the schematics, even the old Premier 140 is essentially the same amplifier. If you can get an old deal on an older model its worth looking into. The teflon cap models do provide more details and better sound staging and dynamics.

2, As far as preamps, I had the ET3se and ET5 prior to the ACT2. The ET5 is a considerable step up from the ET3se and I feel the ACT2 is another jump in quality. The top of the line CJ preamps have always been something special. The GAT would be another step up from the ACT2 but these still come at a high price and not worth the difference for me. I feel the ACT2 is one of the best buys on the used market if you can find one. I don't think their entery level model whether its the classic or ET3 can match the top line preamps. Parts quality is much lower in the entry level preamps. As an example the ET3 and Classic use an electrolytic capacitor in the high voltage power supply where the higher models use all film capacitors with no electrolytics in the signal pass or power supplies. Basic design is similar but parts quality is much higher in their top level preamps.

Just my 2c,
RA
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by 2bdude »

I liked the ET5 more than than Act2 Series2. I like the ET7 more than the ET5. I guess its all system dependent. I liked all of them more than AR Ref5! CJ just sounds right to me I guess.
Happy listening.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Big Dog RJ »

The new ET7 just landed at my dealer mates store, Mmm very tempting I must say!
Each time I look at it, I see the good wife's face in the background saying "hey silly hubby, do not touch that forbidden fruit!" for if you do, you will get a kick up the capital A... And that's all she wrote.
Well I guess my humble pv15 will have to do for now.
Enjoy the ET7, it is a marvelous linestage no doubt.

Cheers, RJ
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by sistersadie »

G'day RJ,
Thanks for your welcoming New Members post which I've recently found under that section in which you asked about my ARTsa.
My take on pre-amps is different: I gave away most of my LPs when CD arrived - rightly or wrongly - so all sources are digital into my DAC which also has gain attenuation. I have tried out the ACT2 and there were no sonic advantages whatsoever to adding a pre-amp - there was a slight veiling or reduction of pinpoint sharpness as I recall. Like you, I'm one for max simplicity in the chain - not just sonically but for the proliferation of boxes that can make Hifi an antisocial habit!!! You know what I mean. For similar reasons I went through a Devialet D Premier stage but it proved to be insufficiently, shall we say, toothsome to the ears, even if it seemed like candy to the eyes!
The sound of my setup is 'getting there' in the sense it combines the fullness of valves (ARTsa and ZeroUno Dac) with punchy detail (helped by HFC cabling with TAD CE1 speakers). Counter- intuitively for someone wanting to reduce the box-count, the cd transport and Dac are separate, like you wouldn't mix a turntable with a phono stage because it's virtually impossible to engineer out the interferences. I like the flexibility the 'Dac-controller' has to switch in tv, radio, and MacBook sources when needed - I gave up watching Homeland until I discovered subtitles, then thru the ART I didn't need them thank god!
Probably (hopefully) the final frontier is to remove the nasty edge audible on the high notes of male and female voices, and on massed strings in loud orchestral passages. I'm planning on auditioning some alternative speaker leads that are designed to cope with treble nasties. If anyone has any suggestions they would be welcomed. I'm starting with Vovox Textura Fortis based only on something I read.
Cheers everyone and to RJ from Down Unda!
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Bill Stevenson »

My ARTsa and ET5 still satisfy me completely. A PS Audio P10 power regenerator was added to my system a couple of years ago and then two months ago it was replaced by their newest P20. The power off the grid here in South Florida is distorted and variable and a good power regenerator really makes a big difference. It stabilized the ARTsa in particular, which almost never needs to be re-biased anymore. What it provides is a low distortion, stable, and low impedence power supply to the electronics. And it does this irrespective of fluctuations on the grid due to demand or electrical storms or what not. Makes for very happy cj components. The sound improvement is quite noticeable, greater clarity and control, more open, and improved signal to noise ratio. If you live in an area with power problems these offer an excellent solution.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Joe Appierto »

This is probably off-topic but here goes anyway. My experience with PS Audio's products has been limited but positive. I still use their venerable Juice Bar as a power strip and have found it to be a chameleon in that it just allows whatever is attached to it work as intended with basically no editorializing. Their Noise Harvesters (I use five of the little buggers) make a small but noticeable difference in lowering the noise floor. Finally, their constantly evolving DirectStream DAC never fails to make music sound just like that, music. Maybe that's why their products play well with those from conrad-johnson: both are there to serve to convey music's emotional content.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by Bill Stevenson »

I think both cj and PS Audio offer significantly greater value for the money spent than the competition. In addition to being compatible with each other, both enterprises seem to be run by very caring and people too.
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by ajf75 »

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Hi all, I'm excited to be welcoming this addition to my family. Arrived safely and looks to be in new condition cosmetically. Pretty big event for me since I don't change out gear much (I've been playing around with my two 'classic' CJ amps for well over a decade now).

I expect it'll be springtime before I have a really good handle on whether I'll be calling this my final amp purchase - not to mention that I do expect to be converting this for EL34 use before I know for sure. In the meantime, thank you RJ for your numerous enthusiastic and insightful posts of your experience with this amp - no doubt it helped with my decision to jump in.

And as much as I want to have it converted for EL34 use immediately, I feel I should really get to know it as it is this winter season (I don't do much critical listening in other seasons). By "as it is" I mean at least sticking with the KT120's and fine tuning around those and see where that goes. I'm a tweaker and don't know how to leave well enough alone, so I am looking for any suggestions resulting from experience with either the ART mono's or ARTsa on the following tweakery:

> Small tubes: The JAN 6198 looks like it can be 'upgraded' to a Genelex Gold Lion EE82 (probably will do this one, not too pricey). And, I know the 6N30's can be' upgraded' to DR variety at a cost. I did that for my CT-5 pre and felt they made a modest but important change for the better there, but not sure if that swap has much impact in this application.

> AC Power cord: Not sure if anything is needed here, but certainly interested in others experiences. My CT-5 was not especially sensitive to the few cords I tried.

> Fuses: somehow a controversial topic, but my experience (with my two older CJ amps, and some other gear) has been that obvious changes can be had. Any specific experiences? Seems I'll do at least the one at the AC inlet to start - after I pick which one to try.

>Amp stand: For now I'll use the same 'sandbox' design that has served me well for many years (don't recall manufacturer), but again certainly interested in the experience of others.

I'm told this amp hasn't had much use in recent history, so yes I'm aware I shouldn't be changing much till those teflon caps have settled.

Thanks all for reading!
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Re: The CJ ARTsa all an amplifier can be

Post by admin »

It looks great. Congrats on the purchase.

As for the "mods", I think 10 people will give you 10 different opinions. In my experience tubes and interconnects have made the most difference. AC power cords, amp stands, and fuses have not made a significant change in the sound. I've tried different amp stands and even built my own power cords and component feet. I try to tell myself that it improved the sound but honestly, not so much. Regardless, people will give varying opinions. I also believe that a small identical change in one system can have significant effects and the same change in another system may have none. In some rooms, acoustic treatments can also have a big effect as well. Just my two cents.
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Home Theater in Member Gallery
Main stereo: ART Amplifier and ET7s2. 2nd stereo: PV-14L and MV-55. Previously Owned: PF2 preamp, Evolution 2000 Amp, PV-12AL preamp, D/A-2b Vacuum-Tube Digital Processor.
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